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>>11945>Another point of contention was that it was possible for Wraiths to devour emotions to the point that a magical girl would have neither hope nor despair, and instead be rendered catatonic so that the Law of Cycles could not affect them. It seems that's not necessarily the case
No, it still looks like that was the case. Kyubey's not really surprised at the outcome and instead is mocking her, while the girls are surprised that she did it willingly, not that it happened.
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They haven't seen her since chapter 6 and they were the one's talking about not letting it eat her emotions.
Logically it would follow that you can only despair if you can feel emotion. If you can't feel emotion, you can't despair. If you can't despair, the LoC can't save you.
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>>11946>As you wished to that Wraith>Save me from being a magical girl
She "wished" for Madowraith to "save" her from being meguca by pulling her out of the hope/despair dichotomy.
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KyouHomu bromance pretty much confirmed to remain intact for the next project.
Mami mentions that she visisted Homura's house, but she was catatonic, not even eating. You'd think Homura's body would start to decay without magic, unless Majuuka is actively preserving it.
My argument is that if there were other magical girls who were in the same boat as Homura, it would have been discussed more by the others, especially since they already know the ins and outs of being a magical girl (such as Law of Cycles and whatnot). Instead, they seem surprised at what happened. Moreover, one would think that as a magical girl is being devoured by a wraith, there would be a sudden rush of despair due to fear of death, thus corrupting the soul gem fully.>>11950
Interestingly enough, Kyoko's idea of how to save Homura seems to share quite a few parallels to her attempt to save Sayaka in the TV series.
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>>11952>My argument is that if there were other magical girls who were in the same boat as Homura, it would have been discussed more by the others
Go back to chapter 1. It's explained that hope is contained one one's heart. It's implied something fucked up happens if they lose their heart. Mami stops herself before explaining it. We know what that reason is now.
In chapter 2, just before the Wraiths are about to eat Sayaka's heart, Kyouko snaps her out of it and she transforms. She then goes out with a bang and is saved by the LoC. This is directly referenced in chapter 6 when Kyouko tries to get Homura to snap out of it and states that clinging to her wish would be the only way to prevent the Wraith from completely eating her emotions. Of course, Homura replied that she didn't remember her wish.
Chapter 4 begins with Mami explaining what happened after the Wraith ate part of Homura's heart and why she lost some of her powers. Mami states that it is the first time she's personally seen it herself, which means it's happened in the past and she's heard stories. Kyubey also adds to the explanation by saying it's permanent and can't be fixed, which implies he knows the implications and consequences of having emotions eaten.
It's been telegraphed since chapter 1 that something horrific like this would happen.
>Interestingly enough, Kyoko's idea of how to save Homura seems to share quite a few parallels to her attempt to save Sayaka in the TV series.
It's all a loop. Nothing changes.
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And if we want to go a step further, the intent of the Wraiths seemed to be to eliminate Homura by consuming her emotions, not force her into despair in order to reunite her with the Law of Cycles. MadoWraith said they're actively targeting her and trying to eat her emotions. It can be implied that what happened to Homura happens to anyone who has their emotions eaten.
The whole thing seems to be a "twist" to the story. It doesn't invalidate Madoka's wish because it actively prevents a girl from despairing, just like Homura becoming a demon instead of a witch doesn't invalidate Madoka's wish.
>>11954>Kyubey also adds to the explanation by saying it's permanent and can't be fixed
Except we know this is not the case, because of Rebellion.>>11955
When I say "invalidates Madoka's wish" I don't mean that it necessarily makes a plothole, but rather I mean the intent and meaning behind the wish. If Madoka can't save magical girls, then her sacrifice truly was completely pointless.
The problem is that it compromises the moral ambiguity prevalent in the series. If this is really the case, then Homura was unambiguously justified in rewriting the universe. That's not how it was intended to be; it was an extremely dubious action that was neither entirely right nor outright wrong.
On top of that, it defeats the whole message of hope at the end of the series if Madoka cannot be the savior of magical girls. Salvation is the crux of her wish, and if she cannot do that, then the changes she effected by her sacrifice are in vain. It robs the meaning from her wish.>>11962
And yet Sayaka and Kyoko were still hacking away at each other. You still run out of magic unless you farm for grief seeds. There's no reason why magical girls may still act territorial. And being lobotomized is a fate worse than death. Sure, turning into a witch is horrible, but eventually the witch is killed and you're killed permanently.
From my understanding even if you're lobotomized your body's physical make up would still eventually decompose like… a lightbulb in a room left on, or an engine without maintenance, it will eventually ware itself down and ultimately cease to function. In this case death would eventually come to those whose "hearts" are snatched.
I feel that Madoka's world balances out entirely with the witches world. Madoka formulated a world that would equally spread out suffering and not concentrate it to little girl tears, now it's everyone's tears. A wraith does not immediately kill so it is more likely to save people rather than an instant inescapable death from a witch or her labyrinth.
Resources are abundant for magical girls and thus do not need to claim territories, Wraiths stem and feed off of the negative emotions of all people (then proceed to suck out the remaining emotions). This creates commodore amongst the once divided magical girls fighting for survival all while still being able to play the hero of justice bringing hope and peace.
Everything can't be perfect so Madoka altered the flow and distribution of hope and despair so that no individual has to suffer for eternity but rather allow all to be saved and all be exposed to have their own suffering, continuing in a cycle of hope and despair.
She made the system more fair for the ones doing all the work. simple as that. Madoka made the right decision.
>>11966>your body's physical make up would still eventually decompose
This makes sense because the girls wouldn't have magic to sustain their bodies.
>A wraith does not immediately kill
Even for a normal person, being completely robbed of any person would be a fate worse than death. Your mind is dead while your body simply persists as normal— although it wouldn't decompose like a magical girl's body. And witches don't kill instantly either; episode 4 shows this with the brainwashed crowd and even Madoka herself.
>Resources are abundant
There's nothing to suggest this. Kyoko even complains about a lack of grief cubes after killing some Wraiths.
>Everything can't be perfect
Of course not. That's why Rebellion happened.
>She made the system more fair
Except it's not really fair if it's a crapshoot whether or not you're saved when you inevitably fall.
>>11963>>If this is really the case, then Homura was unambiguously justified in rewriting the universe.
I think that's a matter of personal opinion rather than an outright fact.
>>On top of that, it defeats the whole message of hope at the end of the series
I'm not sure there is such a message. Clearly that may have been Madoka's motivation, but in my opinion a major theme or point of the show is that no matter the magnitude of effort put forth things don't really change. I suppose someone might call that "fate"? In my opinion this is one of Urobuchi's common themes. Consider Psycho-pass for example. The very first scene is a flash-forward to the big climactic battle at the end of the show. In the case of PMMM we see Homura vs. Walpurgisnacht. In PP we see Kogami vs Makishima. And at the end of both series, after everything has been revealed, the situation is right back to square one. In PMMM we see Homura in the "new" world—largely the same as the old one. QB is still around gathering energy. The girls still fight, only they fight wraiths instead of witches. Even the words for "wraith" and "witch" are deliberately similar. In PP the ending scene with the paddy wagon is nearly identical to the beginning of the first episode—the only difference is who's in command and who is the subordinate.
In my opinion, there never was a message of "hope". Instead, it's a look at cruel fate.
>> It robs the meaning from her wish.
Her wish does not have to be successful for it to be meaningful.
Consider the example of a religious martyr in history. They were killed, often in horrible ways, for the sake of a belief or concept. Yet they didn't actually make any change happen, they simply died for a cause. Yet people still venerate them.
>Implying Rebellion made things better.
let me correct myself; NOTHING IS -SUPPOSED- TO BE PERFECT. Be it the Homura we know or an alter ego, she still set the world on a time bomb course, or else what else could possibly be left in conflict of the universe that would warrant Mami going god mode?
>Except it's all poop when you die anyway.
If you die you die like a normal person. If your soul gem burns out, then the Law of Cycles will take you to paradise.
>lack of grief cubes
its more like RNG but wraiths are more abundant than witches. Because there are more wraiths to fight there is a more probable chance of Grief cubes dropping. Kyoko just was unlucky at the time.
>>11978>I think that's a matter of personal opinion rather than an outright fact.
Given the fact that Madoka's world is only superficially improved over the previous, and Homura has the means to rectify its faults, then overriding Madoka's wish isn't too much of a fault for that result— especially since Madoka herself ends up perfectly fine.
>I'm not sure there is such a message.
Of course there is. The whole point was that Madoka was able to break the cycle and affect meaningful change to give a little more hope over despair in the world. Certainly, being meguca is still suffering, but it's supposed to be not as cruel a fate as it was originally. And most importantly, there's the aspect of salvation, and the implication that Homura eventually will be reunited with Madoka. Now, Rebellion explores what went wrong with Madoka's wish, namely the threat of the Incubators, which is legitimate. There's also Homura's breakdown due to being isolated and robbed of her raison d'etre.
Except that Homura is the only one who venerates her. Not to mention, she would just end up another victim to the duplicitous nature of wishes, which was certainly not the intention. Again, if it's in vain, the whole thing turns into an ironic shaggy dog story.>>11979>NOTHING IS -SUPPOSED- TO BE PERFECT
I never disagreed with this. Homura's universe has its flaws, but it's a necessary step for improvement.
>If your soul gem burns out, then the Law of Cycles will take you to paradise.
That's my point— how is it fair if it's completely random whether or not you're saved by the Law of Cycles. And "paradise" is a stretch— sure, you're not suffering, but it's not exactly fun and games— more like meguca Instrumentality.
>>11980>>The whole point was that Madoka was able to break the cycle…
I disagree. I think the whole point was that even though she literally rewrote the universe the same problems still persist.
>>And most importantly, there's the aspect of salvation, and the implication that Homura eventually will be reunited with Madoka
I agree with that. But that's a different thing altogether than whether or not there is salvation or additional hope. The two are not mutually exclusive.
>>Except that Homura is the only one who venerates her
I did not mean that Madoka was a literal martyr to be worshiped. I mentioned martyrs as a real-world example of people who died for a cause, achieved nothing, but are still venerated. In other words, just because Madoka didn't affect any real change doesn't mean she isn't worthy of respect, praise, worship, etc.
>>Again, if it's in vain, the whole thing turns into an ironic shaggy dog story.
See, this is where the martyr comment is relevant. Real-world martyrs achieved nothing, yet we don't go around saying they're only a "shaggy dog story".
>>11983>the same problems still persist
This is fair, but it's a matter of scale. The before was "dying in vain or worse"; the after was just "dying", which of course is hardly an ideal life of a magical girl, but it's an improvement. Wraith Arc is suggesting that she's just another girl who botched her wish which certainly was not the message of the anime.
>just because Madoka didn't affect any real change doesn't mean she isn't worthy of respect
The thing to note here are levels of failure, particularly in the long term. If the ideology lives on and moves people, then there's still credit to their sacrifice. Rebellion portrays Madoka's wish as being flawed, and that her mistakes were honest and in part due to unforeseen circumstances. This is making it seem like a colossal blunder. This detracts from the respect and praiseworthiness she would have earned from her sacrifice, because instead of taking a stand, she's falling into the same pitfall that besets those who wish for hope.
>Real-world martyrs achieved nothing
Quite often they die simply for their ideology, which lives on. In other cases, when they oppose a system, that system is eventually dismantled after their deaths. Taking this retcon of Madoka's wish, she her opposition to the system bore nothing but further suffering and reduces her to a stepping stone for Homura's ascent.
Well , what is made clear during and after the LoC being established by Madoka includes:
1- Madoka herself being destined to fight evil, or rather witches, for eternity; and
2- No cheese-based snacks for the girls saved by the LoC.
On these points, it makes one wonder about each one of them:
1- How Homura would be together with Madoka from there on if there were duties awaiting for her. Would Homura become Ultimate Madoka's sidekick and share her fate of fighting witches?
2- Is it that the place the girls are brought by the LoC is not some kind of afterlife, and thus there is no such thing as eating when they're just wandering spirits for lack of a better word? Is it an actual plane of existence where they just don't have any need for eating? Or there is food in there but no cows/other mammals because Madoka cannot bring them?
I think that's wrong. Gretchen was trying to swallow the entire world, which would thus end despair and bring forth the 'creation of paradise.' Humans or magical girls alike. So this.
>she may have really wanted to disintegrate everyone into ash to act as topsoil for her personal garden of Eden…
would be right on some level.
>>11987>>1- Madoka herself being destined to fight evil, or rather witches, for eternity
>>2- No cheese-based snacks for the girls saved by the LoC.
Not quite. We know this is true for Nagisa for sure. Presumably for Sayaka also, given that in Rebellion the two of them are both referred to as "the LoC's private secretaries". But what we don't know is if they are the only ones in this position, or if there are others too. Rebellion doesn't make that clear. It may be that those two are a special case and they are the only ones to 'survive' in some sense while the other girls taken by the LoC are simply gone. We just don't know if their situation is unique or is typical of any/all magical girls taken by the LoC.
The witch of salvation ends all life on earth, the only thing she seems to not kill in an instant are Magical Girls which would explain why Homura was around long enough to go back.
The whole point of Madoka ascending into Ultimate Madoka is that it's her witch but at the same time it's not. Madoka being the ultimate epitome of hope her paradise is real and not some false facade. The girls retain their identities as implied with the fairies of the LoC from the concept trailer.
To even suggest it would be better to be consumed by a being of despair versus a being who opens her arms and welcomes you into a real paradise is ludicrous.
One thing you need to remember is that all witch worlds are delusional dream worlds, Homura's being a prime example. It's all fake and even potentially be the most cruel witch out of all of them under the delusional guise that they are saving people and bringing them into salvation. That was the entire point of witches is that their curses fuel their delusions and cause suffering to all parties involved.
Gretchen "Saving everyone" is more like Gretchen "Damning everyone." but in her eyes she's "Saving them"
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>>11987>>Is it that the place the girls are brought by the LoC is not some kind of afterlife, and thus there is no such thing as eating when they're just wandering spirits for lack of a better word? Is it an actual plane of existence where…
At the beginning of Rebellion, Homura states that the girls wait for the LoC to take them into the "salvation of oblivion".
I take this to mean that the average magical girl is simply gone when the LoC takes them. No afterlife. No "heaven", No alternate plane, just gone.
Sayaka and Nagisa would appear to be unique exceptions as the "LoC's private secretaries".
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Not really WA8 as raws have yet to arrive. In the meantime, a small apetizer. Sutema A6.http://silvergardentl.blogspot.mx/2016/08/kirara-magica-volume-6-sutema-i-found.html
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I want to say I'm glad I wasn't the only one who caught the references to EoE.
We have the intention, but it's not really feasible to release them fast because:
A) There are a lot of things to translate
B) There's already a version out by tumblr that should suffice until we get around it (maybe by the time that final tank comes out)
C) I'm the only available translator as of now
Then what about that line that Sayaka says to Kyoko "The reason why i accepted this mission… is so I could see you again."
See the wording "the reason I accepted" implies Sayaka was given a choice of to be part of the rescue or not. It would be odd if girls part of a collective being would be given a choice if they were to be one collective entity in the LoC. Not to mention all the girls retain their memories and past experiences. So I find it hard to believe the LoC is just this collective blob of force comprised of every meguca ever rather than a haven of some form.
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Korean scans out first this time.
I think Homura was just saving Wraithdoka
The last page is just a flashback to the events at the end of Wraith Arc chapter 3, revealing the main antagonist(?): Homura's shield(?)
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Moksha Wraith in Chapter 3