How long until someone posts a link so that we don't have to download it?
Finally ! I hope they translate the other chapters of WA.
Silver Garden really is full of surprises.
I thought Juno was taken by the Law of Cycles.
RL has taken Juno away for some time now. That's why you might find some grammar errors here and there.
I can wait as much time as it takes but I really hope YSG translate all the chapters of Wraith Arc
Okay, so, the translation says nothing to suggest that wraiths can actually travel back in time as was suggested earlier when the raws came out, so fortunately that's not an issue.
Another point of contention was that it was possible for Wraiths to devour emotions to the point that a magical girl would have neither hope nor despair, and instead be rendered catatonic so that the Law of Cycles could not affect them. It seems that's not necessarily the case, but rather this was only possible because Homura explicitly asked for it from Majuuka, who complied. It's that Homura was able to find an exception to the Law of Cycles more so than this being a legitimate danger to all magical girls, so Madoka's wish doesn't seem invalidated.
They haven't seen her since chapter 6 and they were the one's talking about not letting it eat her emotions.
Logically it would follow that you can only despair if you can feel emotion. If you can't feel emotion, you can't despair. If you can't despair, the LoC can't save you.
He doesn't seem surprised because he figured it out. But at the same time, on the previous page, Kyubey says, "Is this the conclusion you hoped for?" which suggests it was unexpected.
Mami mentions that she visisted Homura's house, but she was catatonic, not even eating. You'd think Homura's body would start to decay without magic, unless Majuuka is actively preserving it.
My argument is that if there were other magical girls who were in the same boat as Homura, it would have been discussed more by the others, especially since they already know the ins and outs of being a magical girl (such as Law of Cycles and whatnot). Instead, they seem surprised at what happened. Moreover, one would think that as a magical girl is being devoured by a wraith, there would be a sudden rush of despair due to fear of death, thus corrupting the soul gem fully.>>11950
Interestingly enough, Kyoko's idea of how to save Homura seems to share quite a few parallels to her attempt to save Sayaka in the TV series.
>>11952>My argument is that if there were other magical girls who were in the same boat as Homura, it would have been discussed more by the others
Go back to chapter 1. It's explained that hope is contained one one's heart. It's implied something fucked up happens if they lose their heart. Mami stops herself before explaining it. We know what that reason is now.
In chapter 2, just before the Wraiths are about to eat Sayaka's heart, Kyouko snaps her out of it and she transforms. She then goes out with a bang and is saved by the LoC. This is directly referenced in chapter 6 when Kyouko tries to get Homura to snap out of it and states that clinging to her wish would be the only way to prevent the Wraith from completely eating her emotions. Of course, Homura replied that she didn't remember her wish.
Chapter 4 begins with Mami explaining what happened after the Wraith ate part of Homura's heart and why she lost some of her powers. Mami states that it is the first time she's personally seen it herself, which means it's happened in the past and she's heard stories. Kyubey also adds to the explanation by saying it's permanent and can't be fixed, which implies he knows the implications and consequences of having emotions eaten.
It's been telegraphed since chapter 1 that something horrific like this would happen.
>Interestingly enough, Kyoko's idea of how to save Homura seems to share quite a few parallels to her attempt to save Sayaka in the TV series.
It's all a loop. Nothing changes.
And if we want to go a step further, the intent of the Wraiths seemed to be to eliminate Homura by consuming her emotions, not force her into despair in order to reunite her with the Law of Cycles. MadoWraith said they're actively targeting her and trying to eat her emotions. It can be implied that what happened to Homura happens to anyone who has their emotions eaten.
The whole thing seems to be a "twist" to the story. It doesn't invalidate Madoka's wish because it actively prevents a girl from despairing, just like Homura becoming a demon instead of a witch doesn't invalidate Madoka's wish.
>>11954>Kyubey also adds to the explanation by saying it's permanent and can't be fixed
Except we know this is not the case, because of Rebellion.>>11955
When I say "invalidates Madoka's wish" I don't mean that it necessarily makes a plothole, but rather I mean the intent and meaning behind the wish. If Madoka can't save magical girls, then her sacrifice truly was completely pointless.
>>11956>If Madoka can't save magical girls, then her sacrifice truly was completely pointless.
Which is probably what this manga is trying to show us: that it WAS pointless, and if Homura didn't go Akuma at the end of Rebellion, nothing would have changed! In fact, compared to the witch universe IT MIGHT BE WORSE! (As for Homura turning back to normal for Rebellion…she's a special case since it looks like the Madowraith is turning traitor on its own kind and is going to give Homura back her "heart", which until this point probably never happened before…)
In fact there were real improvements in the wraith world as the ease of creating groups of magical girls, no intense competition for grief seeds, no paranoia of invasion by other girls, there is no need to questionable actions to stay alive (farming witches ), increased mental stability of magical girls in general and bottom have their emotions drained and stay in catatonic is not so different from being killed by a witch.
The problem is that it compromises the moral ambiguity prevalent in the series. If this is really the case, then Homura was unambiguously justified in rewriting the universe. That's not how it was intended to be; it was an extremely dubious action that was neither entirely right nor outright wrong.
On top of that, it defeats the whole message of hope at the end of the series if Madoka cannot be the savior of magical girls. Salvation is the crux of her wish, and if she cannot do that, then the changes she effected by her sacrifice are in vain. It robs the meaning from her wish.>>11962
And yet Sayaka and Kyoko were still hacking away at each other. You still run out of magic unless you farm for grief seeds. There's no reason why magical girls may still act territorial. And being lobotomized is a fate worse than death. Sure, turning into a witch is horrible, but eventually the witch is killed and you're killed permanently.
From my understanding even if you're lobotomized your body's physical make up would still eventually decompose like… a lightbulb in a room left on, or an engine without maintenance, it will eventually ware itself down and ultimately cease to function. In this case death would eventually come to those whose "hearts" are snatched.
I feel that Madoka's world balances out entirely with the witches world. Madoka formulated a world that would equally spread out suffering and not concentrate it to little girl tears, now it's everyone's tears. A wraith does not immediately kill so it is more likely to save people rather than an instant inescapable death from a witch or her labyrinth.
Resources are abundant for magical girls and thus do not need to claim territories, Wraiths stem and feed off of the negative emotions of all people (then proceed to suck out the remaining emotions). This creates commodore amongst the once divided magical girls fighting for survival all while still being able to play the hero of justice bringing hope and peace.
Everything can't be perfect so Madoka altered the flow and distribution of hope and despair so that no individual has to suffer for eternity but rather allow all to be saved and all be exposed to have their own suffering, continuing in a cycle of hope and despair.
She made the system more fair for the ones doing all the work. simple as that. Madoka made the right decision.
>>11966>your body's physical make up would still eventually decompose
This makes sense because the girls wouldn't have magic to sustain their bodies.
>A wraith does not immediately kill
Even for a normal person, being completely robbed of any person would be a fate worse than death. Your mind is dead while your body simply persists as normal— although it wouldn't decompose like a magical girl's body. And witches don't kill instantly either; episode 4 shows this with the brainwashed crowd and even Madoka herself.
>Resources are abundant
There's nothing to suggest this. Kyoko even complains about a lack of grief cubes after killing some Wraiths.
>Everything can't be perfect
Of course not. That's why Rebellion happened.
>She made the system more fair
Except it's not really fair if it's a crapshoot whether or not you're saved when you inevitably fall.
>>11963>>If this is really the case, then Homura was unambiguously justified in rewriting the universe.
I think that's a matter of personal opinion rather than an outright fact.
>>On top of that, it defeats the whole message of hope at the end of the series
I'm not sure there is such a message. Clearly that may have been Madoka's motivation, but in my opinion a major theme or point of the show is that no matter the magnitude of effort put forth things don't really change. I suppose someone might call that "fate"? In my opinion this is one of Urobuchi's common themes. Consider Psycho-pass for example. The very first scene is a flash-forward to the big climactic battle at the end of the show. In the case of PMMM we see Homura vs. Walpurgisnacht. In PP we see Kogami vs Makishima. And at the end of both series, after everything has been revealed, the situation is right back to square one. In PMMM we see Homura in the "new" world—largely the same as the old one. QB is still around gathering energy. The girls still fight, only they fight wraiths instead of witches. Even the words for "wraith" and "witch" are deliberately similar. In PP the ending scene with the paddy wagon is nearly identical to the beginning of the first episode—the only difference is who's in command and who is the subordinate.
In my opinion, there never was a message of "hope". Instead, it's a look at cruel fate.
>> It robs the meaning from her wish.
Her wish does not have to be successful for it to be meaningful.
Consider the example of a religious martyr in history. They were killed, often in horrible ways, for the sake of a belief or concept. Yet they didn't actually make any change happen, they simply died for a cause. Yet people still venerate them.
>Implying Rebellion made things better.
let me correct myself; NOTHING IS -SUPPOSED- TO BE PERFECT. Be it the Homura we know or an alter ego, she still set the world on a time bomb course, or else what else could possibly be left in conflict of the universe that would warrant Mami going god mode?
>Except it's all poop when you die anyway.
If you die you die like a normal person. If your soul gem burns out, then the Law of Cycles will take you to paradise.
>lack of grief cubes
its more like RNG but wraiths are more abundant than witches. Because there are more wraiths to fight there is a more probable chance of Grief cubes dropping. Kyoko just was unlucky at the time.
>>11978>I think that's a matter of personal opinion rather than an outright fact.
Given the fact that Madoka's world is only superficially improved over the previous, and Homura has the means to rectify its faults, then overriding Madoka's wish isn't too much of a fault for that result— especially since Madoka herself ends up perfectly fine.
>I'm not sure there is such a message.
Of course there is. The whole point was that Madoka was able to break the cycle and affect meaningful change to give a little more hope over despair in the world. Certainly, being meguca is still suffering, but it's supposed to be not as cruel a fate as it was originally. And most importantly, there's the aspect of salvation, and the implication that Homura eventually will be reunited with Madoka. Now, Rebellion explores what went wrong with Madoka's wish, namely the threat of the Incubators, which is legitimate. There's also Homura's breakdown due to being isolated and robbed of her raison d'etre.
Except that Homura is the only one who venerates her. Not to mention, she would just end up another victim to the duplicitous nature of wishes, which was certainly not the intention. Again, if it's in vain, the whole thing turns into an ironic shaggy dog story.>>11979>NOTHING IS -SUPPOSED- TO BE PERFECT
I never disagreed with this. Homura's universe has its flaws, but it's a necessary step for improvement.
>If your soul gem burns out, then the Law of Cycles will take you to paradise.
That's my point— how is it fair if it's completely random whether or not you're saved by the Law of Cycles. And "paradise" is a stretch— sure, you're not suffering, but it's not exactly fun and games— more like meguca Instrumentality.
>>11979>wraiths are more abundant than witches
Only because they began swarming when Homura appeared.
>>11980>>The whole point was that Madoka was able to break the cycle…
I disagree. I think the whole point was that even though she literally rewrote the universe the same problems still persist.
>>And most importantly, there's the aspect of salvation, and the implication that Homura eventually will be reunited with Madoka
I agree with that. But that's a different thing altogether than whether or not there is salvation or additional hope. The two are not mutually exclusive.
>>Except that Homura is the only one who venerates her
I did not mean that Madoka was a literal martyr to be worshiped. I mentioned martyrs as a real-world example of people who died for a cause, achieved nothing, but are still venerated. In other words, just because Madoka didn't affect any real change doesn't mean she isn't worthy of respect, praise, worship, etc.
>>Again, if it's in vain, the whole thing turns into an ironic shaggy dog story.
See, this is where the martyr comment is relevant. Real-world martyrs achieved nothing, yet we don't go around saying they're only a "shaggy dog story".
>>11979>>then the Law of Cycles will take you to paradise.
How do we know that, exactly? We know the LoC "takes" magical girls, but the Anime never makes it clear what happens to them exactly. We don't even know if there is a "heaven" or any other sort of afterlife in the PMMM universe. While I agree that this is a possibility, we don't actually see anything which makes it clear. For all we know they simply die with no afterlife of any sort.
>>11983>the same problems still persist
This is fair, but it's a matter of scale. The before was "dying in vain or worse"; the after was just "dying", which of course is hardly an ideal life of a magical girl, but it's an improvement. Wraith Arc is suggesting that she's just another girl who botched her wish which certainly was not the message of the anime.
>just because Madoka didn't affect any real change doesn't mean she isn't worthy of respect
The thing to note here are levels of failure, particularly in the long term. If the ideology lives on and moves people, then there's still credit to their sacrifice. Rebellion portrays Madoka's wish as being flawed, and that her mistakes were honest and in part due to unforeseen circumstances. This is making it seem like a colossal blunder. This detracts from the respect and praiseworthiness she would have earned from her sacrifice, because instead of taking a stand, she's falling into the same pitfall that besets those who wish for hope.
>Real-world martyrs achieved nothing
Quite often they die simply for their ideology, which lives on. In other cases, when they oppose a system, that system is eventually dismantled after their deaths. Taking this retcon of Madoka's wish, she her opposition to the system bore nothing but further suffering and reduces her to a stepping stone for Homura's ascent.
In all honesty, we know little of how Homura's universe looks. The end of Rebellion portrays it dreamily, we see the girls happy, and Wraiths apparently still exist — that's it. It's as vague as it can be.
Well , what is made clear during and after the LoC being established by Madoka includes:
1- Madoka herself being destined to fight evil, or rather witches, for eternity; and
2- No cheese-based snacks for the girls saved by the LoC.
On these points, it makes one wonder about each one of them:
1- How Homura would be together with Madoka from there on if there were duties awaiting for her. Would Homura become Ultimate Madoka's sidekick and share her fate of fighting witches?
2- Is it that the place the girls are brought by the LoC is not some kind of afterlife, and thus there is no such thing as eating when they're just wandering spirits for lack of a better word? Is it an actual plane of existence where they just don't have any need for eating? Or there is food in there but no cows/other mammals because Madoka cannot bring them?
I always though that Magical Girls, after being saved by the LoC/Madoka, they became a part of her (literally speaking)
If the silhouettes ["Fairies"] of the concept film are magical girls who inhabited the law of cycles, and are coming to aid Madoka to reascend to godhood, wouldn't there be a reason for it though? One could argue it's the Law of Cycles trying to reunite with madoka, but there would have to be the reason why Madoka is so important to the LoC itself. Why is Madoka's existence essential for the LoC to work properly? My guess is without Madoka, there is no one left fighting evil, so while girls are being saved there is nothing that's absorbing/purging the darkness within them and thus the gradual imbalance begins.
I'm not saying you're wrong (because I agree with you) but if this were the case, then she'd be no different then the witch she separated from, who pretty much wanted to do the same thing to all mankind (I think; for all we know she may have really wanted to disintegrate everyone into ash to act as topsoil for her personal garden of Eden…). If this is true, than the Law of Cycles is nothing more than a carbon copy of her own witch that saves magical girls and not humanity. Personally I'd much rather get assimilated/mercy killed by a kind and loving witch than be excluded from eternal salvation due to magical girls being given a priority over everyone else…
I think that's wrong. Gretchen was trying to swallow the entire world, which would thus end despair and bring forth the 'creation of paradise.' Humans or magical girls alike. So this.
>she may have really wanted to disintegrate everyone into ash to act as topsoil for her personal garden of Eden…
would be right on some level.
The key difference here is that witches themselves are embodiments of despair— her "paradise" would be little more than a farce doomed to failure.
>>11987>>1- Madoka herself being destined to fight evil, or rather witches, for eternity
>>2- No cheese-based snacks for the girls saved by the LoC.
Not quite. We know this is true for Nagisa for sure. Presumably for Sayaka also, given that in Rebellion the two of them are both referred to as "the LoC's private secretaries". But what we don't know is if they are the only ones in this position, or if there are others too. Rebellion doesn't make that clear. It may be that those two are a special case and they are the only ones to 'survive' in some sense while the other girls taken by the LoC are simply gone. We just don't know if their situation is unique or is typical of any/all magical girls taken by the LoC.
The witch of salvation ends all life on earth, the only thing she seems to not kill in an instant are Magical Girls which would explain why Homura was around long enough to go back.
The whole point of Madoka ascending into Ultimate Madoka is that it's her witch but at the same time it's not. Madoka being the ultimate epitome of hope her paradise is real and not some false facade. The girls retain their identities as implied with the fairies of the LoC from the concept trailer.
To even suggest it would be better to be consumed by a being of despair versus a being who opens her arms and welcomes you into a real paradise is ludicrous.
>>11997>it would be better to be consumed by a being of despair versus a being who opens her arms and welcomes you into a real paradise
I never said that. I said that it would be better for EVERYONE to be accepted than for a select few to be accepted (all magical girls in existence). Also, if Gretchen's "salvation" is nothing more than "die and turn into ash to fuel my garden", then I'd rather have a world where EVERYONE gets saved when they die, not just magical girls, which is where I'd like the sequel to go in terms of the ending…
That's assuming Gretchen actually kills you. It could easily be far worse.
One thing you need to remember is that all witch worlds are delusional dream worlds, Homura's being a prime example. It's all fake and even potentially be the most cruel witch out of all of them under the delusional guise that they are saving people and bringing them into salvation. That was the entire point of witches is that their curses fuel their delusions and cause suffering to all parties involved.
Gretchen "Saving everyone" is more like Gretchen "Damning everyone." but in her eyes she's "Saving them"
If you're familliar with the game "We happy few" imagine Gretchen on Joy bringing everyone into her domain happy when in reality everything is pretty much a living hell, and the worst part… No one can die… no one can escape.
>>11987>>Is it that the place the girls are brought by the LoC is not some kind of afterlife, and thus there is no such thing as eating when they're just wandering spirits for lack of a better word? Is it an actual plane of existence where…
At the beginning of Rebellion, Homura states that the girls wait for the LoC to take them into the "salvation of oblivion".
I take this to mean that the average magical girl is simply gone when the LoC takes them. No afterlife. No "heaven", No alternate plane, just gone.
Sayaka and Nagisa would appear to be unique exceptions as the "LoC's private secretaries".
>>12085>Sayaka and Nagisa would appear to be unique exceptions as the "LoC's private secretaries".
It seems even The Law of Cycles couldn't resist being a little selfish (Sayaka was her best friend, Bebe wanted to be Mami's daughter surrogate). I wonder if the sequel is going to address this…
your silver garden won't translate the previous chapters of wraith arc? oh man that's bad , I was hoping they would
I'm not saying they are forced to, but no fansub has traslated Wraith Arc and so far there are only rough subs besides chapter 1 and 7
I don't think that's necessarily the case. To once again make the parallel to Instrumentality, think of Sayaka and Nagisa as being temporarily reconstituted to complete a mission. The intent is that they would have been absorbed back into the collective after Homura was saved.
Madoka Magica is called "the Evangelion of anime" for a reason, you know.
We have the intention, but it's not really feasible to release them fast because:
A) There are a lot of things to translate
B) There's already a version out by tumblr that should suffice until we get around it (maybe by the time that final tank comes out)
C) I'm the only available translator as of now
Then what about that line that Sayaka says to Kyoko "The reason why i accepted this mission… is so I could see you again."
See the wording "the reason I accepted" implies Sayaka was given a choice of to be part of the rescue or not. It would be odd if girls part of a collective being would be given a choice if they were to be one collective entity in the LoC. Not to mention all the girls retain their memories and past experiences. So I find it hard to believe the LoC is just this collective blob of force comprised of every meguca ever rather than a haven of some form.
Madoka couldn't bring the entire collective with her, obviously. Just like how Shinji and Asuka un-tanged themselves by recreating their AT Fields in The End of Evangelion, Sayaka and Nagisa did something similar so that they could undertake the mission.
Not just EoE. The opening of Rebellion is like that school sequence at the end of the original Evangelion anime.
So by the looks of things, because Kyoko's SG didn't disappear, it turned to stone instead then got absorbed into the Wraith version of wafflehouse. Because of this Kyoko is neither dead nor alive at this point making her alive in Rebellion totally legit. Though I'm beginning to see that these events are possibly what leads up to the ruined Mitakihara/ Wastelands of X location.
I don't get, did Homura absorbed madowraith in the end?
I think Homura was just saving Wraithdoka
The last page is just a flashback to the events at the end of Wraith Arc chapter 3, revealing the main antagonist(?): Homura's shield(?)
This is moksha wraith and not litreally Homura's shield.
But somehow Homura's former powers and weapon managed to manifested through the Moksha Wraith
Is there any proof that the new project is a *movie*? I know that a new project was announced, but AFIK they did not announce what that new project would be exactly.
The production quality leads us to believe it will be a movie.
the wraith arc was supposedly meant to be animated but went with the manga format, probably to help save funds for mado movie. I can see Madoka becokming a fate stay franchise… the groundwork being laid out via Magia Record
What do we know about the production quality? AFIK they haven't released anything from which we could determine that. Or am I missing something?
>>the wraith arc was supposedly meant to be animated but went with the manga format
Source of that info?
>> I can see Madoka becokming a fate stay franchise…
Yeah, I can see how that could happen too. But I'm trying to get away from fan speculation and rumor and focus on verifiable facts.
To answer the first question, there's a concept trailer and stills from said concept trailer on the wiki page for the concept movie
Not him, but I think most people assume movie because the entire series is in movie format and it’s almost completely unheard of for a canon movie to be followed up by a tv series. They also still use Madoka Movie Project copyright on the official concept movie material.
Secondly, Shinbo and Urobuchi have said over the years that they’re struggling on ideas. Shinbo said in the final regular issue of Kirara Magica that they’re still putting together ideas together, which means a scenario and script weren’t even close to being done back in 2017. Rebellion was ultimately a movie because they couldn’t pull enough material to make a season 2 and this will likely be a movie as well for the same reason. As epic and grand as everything might seem, it ultimately comes down to the same clash of ideals between Madoka, Homura, and Kyubey that the anime is built on. The origin of witches are no longer a mystery and we already know the world is fake, so there’s much less to drag out a 2 hour movie, let a lone a 12 episode series. Wraiths and Devil Homu are our only real wild cards.
-lack of material for a full 12 episode series
>Source of that info?
Kirara Magica 20.
>Madoka Grand Order
Yeah, Kirara Magica never impacted the anime continuum before and we’ve had 2 mobage games since the 2011 series, so Magia Record’s existence is pretty irrelevent to any sequel discussions.
I remember the concept trailer, I was just wondering if there was anything beyond that that I wasn't aware of. Having been an anime fan for two decades I've gotten my hopes up more than once over awesome previews, openings, or trailers, only to find that the finished product was quite different.
Now I do agree that the new production certainly ought to have high standards–they set the bar very high with the recap movies and Rebellion.
>>14139>>most people assume movie
I agree, I was just wondering if we had any more to go on than assumption.
>> it’s almost completely unheard of for a canon movie to be followed up by a tv series
It happens. Heck, it's happening right now with the CCS "Clear Card" TV. Plus there's also the option of them doing an OVA, which could be of any length.
>>Rebellion was ultimately a movie because they couldn’t pull enough material to make a season 2
Quote (from where?) or speculation?