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File: 1476876104743.jpg (1.05 MB, 1250x1250, meguca_65.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google iqdb

 No.12642

Are they enemies or rivals?

 No.12655

Mami tries to get along with other megucas when she was a newbie but later she realizes that it's not how it works after meeting the megucas sisters in Different Story.
So, in Mami's view, rivalizes Homura in the series because she thinks that Homura is jealous because when Madoka becomes meguca, she will be more powerful than her according to a meguca standart worried about grief seeds and controlling territories (But that's not why she tries to stop Madoka and Homura has'nt the same goal as Mami so they aren't rivals)

In Homura's view, she gets along well with Mami in previous timeline but, in the third timeline, she is shocked of the true nature of megucas and Mami's mental fragility too when she attempts to kill everyone. So, in the following timelines, she tries to avoid her and, in Rebellion, she says to never feel comfortable with Mami for always trying to pretend to be strong and brave in order to be a big sister figure to the rest of megucas despite her fragility.

So, in conclusion, they're like enemies.

 No.12656

>>12642
Mami sees Homura as an enemy; Homura sees Mami as an obstacle. Otherwise they're.

 No.12657

>>12656
Well, I fucked that up.

*Otherwise they're on decent terms.

 No.12659

>>12655
see this post >>12652

 No.12661

>>12642
Neither. Circumstances put them at odds with each other.

There are subtle differences to the way Homura interacts with the non-Madokas. For example, Homura can rightfully state she doesn't give a damn about Sayaka because everything that happens to her is due to her own actions and complete inability to comprehend the gravity of the situation. While Homura doesn't actively wish ill will toward Sayaka, she views her as a major thorn in her side.

In Mami's case, she respects, pities, and fears Mami. Homura can't do anything to save Mami because Mami is a veteran magical girl. Telling her the truth shatters her view of the world and it leads to people dying. At the same time, Mami is Homura's mentor and we see in E3 that Homura does feel saddened by Mami's death and in Rebellion where she states that she pities Mami's emotional weakness. Mami is a legitimate hero figure who was cursed to be born in a world without heroes and that irony is clear to Homu.

That said, Mami actively tries to contract Madoka. While she'd rather convince Mami to side with her against Walmartnight, Homura can't do this due to Mami's insistence on contracting Madoka and this puts them at odds.

On Mami's end, she views Homura as a threat. Based on her experiences, Homura is a magical girl that wants to encroach on her territory. Why does she want to stop Kyubey from contracting the girls? Does she value grief seeds over people's safety? There is 0 reason to trust Homura and because most other girls (Kyouko for example) just come around and start shit, she can only conclude that Homura is scheming against her.

It's important to keep in mind that outside of E10, Mami and Homura have never actively tried to kill each other and instead go for restraining movement.

 No.12745

>>12661

Mami is a faux hero that puts up a tough front to hide her true vulnerabilities. If they both could put down their facades a bit, they probably could have connected from that angle.

 No.12748

No, Mami's a true hero who puts up a front of being more confident and cheerful than she truly is. Not being happy about facing down eldritch abominations alone doesn't in any way detract from the fact that she *does*. She actually fights more than she has to since she takes out familiars as well.

I think in some ways Mami and Homura are too similar to get along. At their cores, they both will put the people (person) they love above everything else. Unfortunately, they can both be jealous and possessive, though to their credit they try very hard to keep this to themselves instead of trying to control the people they care about (or Homura did until the end of Rebellion).

They also want the very best for their friends, but because they don't have the same knowledge about the situation they have very different ideas of what that is, especially as it concerns Madoka.

You might say that they're rivals for Madoka's friendship (sort of), but they're not enemies. Until Homura declares herself everyone's enemy in Rebellion. *sigh*

 No.12749

*meant to make clear that the sort-of-friendship-rivalry over Madoka really only appeared in PMMM Portable

 No.12750

>>12748
She is a faux hero though. There are no 'true heroes' in the PMMM universe to begin with. Her entire character was a breakdown of the senpai/mentor figure. She was putting Madoka and Sayaka at risk because she was desperate for friends. Kyubey' exploited this.

 No.12752

File: 1478851996206.jpg (85.04 KB, 720x960, The chosen one.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google iqdb

>>12642
Secret allies.

 No.12753

>>12750
>>She is a faux hero though

Perhaps we differ on definitions of "hero" then? I agree with >>12748 here. None of the girls are perfect—they certainly all have flaws, insecurities, and whatnot. But I don't see how that disqualifies them from being a hero. If you look at examples of "heroes" in literature—anything from Gilgamesh to modern-day comic books—the heroes are nearly always flawed in some way. It's true in Greek myths, the works of Shakespeare, holy books…you name it.

What exactly separates a "faux hero" from a "hero" in your definition? I'm pretty sure we could name any "hero" throughout history—real or literary—and find plenty of flaws due to human nature.

 No.12755

>>12753
Not that anon, but I think it's more of a setting thing rather than her personality. In a more typical setting, Mami would more or less be an ideal hero. However, the universe of PMMM simply does not permit such heroism to exist. Homura makes a speech about it in the series. Idealism is hammered down and crushed. Not that it is completely invalidated, however— but rather that in order to realize an ideal, less-than-ideal methods are required.

 No.12756

>>12755

I'm not really sure the setting matters that much. For example, take the "setting" of Greek myths. Plenty of heroes in the traditional sense of the word, yet at the same time the world is still plagued with endless suffering. In the intro to Rebellion Homura states that the world is "doomed to endlessly repeat suffering" and yet the girls fight on. That's not altogether different than the Greek mythological world. You've got heroic characters, but no matter how powerful they are or how much good they attempt or accomplish they're still subject to the whims and actions of the immortal gods. Another example could be found in the bible. You have stories of heroic exploits, but at the same time you have the statements in Ecclesiastes 3—a time for everything. In other words, there will always be a time for killing, destruction, etc. regardless of the good that is done. There is a similar princile in Buddhism: the concept of an endless cycle of rebirth and destruction.

Another possible interpretation of that speech is that Homura is talking about *HER* world specifically—doomed to repeat time-shifts over and over again—rather than the world as a whole.

 No.12757

File: 1478889303170.jpg (293.38 KB, 850x1204, __akemi_homura_akuma_homur….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google iqdb

>>12752
I went through the old archives back when the concept movie was announced. We don't have more than posters like this, but it felt like what Wraith Arc was setting up with her willing to see the wraiths as more than enemies and realizing that she was judging Homura unfairly. I don't think she'll side with Homura, but she'll likely advocate for her.

 No.12758

>>12756
I think there's an element of values dissonance between the Greeks and modern morality, though— that is, every tragic hero deserved/earned his fate by his hubris. But when we look at the story from a modern perspective, there is a greater realization that the gods are spiteful, if not outright malicious in some cases, and shoulder the blame. Oedipus comes to mind.

Perhaps even more importantly, is the notion that the heroic deeds are not undone. The hero may fall, but their legacy remains. This is contrary to Madoka, where hope and despair must balance to zero, where, as witches, magical girls destroy the hope they created, and dying in vain. Madoka herself was on the path to wiping out planet Earth. Futility is a core point here, far more so than in other works, that the simple act of being a hero will bring ruin.

 No.12759

>>12758

The gods are often spiteful, sure. I don't see how that's much different from the idea of a "cruel universe" though. Gods in many myths are really no different than the ideas of fate or karmic balance. We might call them by different names and associate human traits with some and not others, but boil it down and it's all just magical power above and beyond the control or understanding of humankind.

And even then there is the idea of more than just spite in classic myths. A particular event might be spiteful but there are just as many others that might cancel them out. In Greek myths you constantly have one god screwing over another only to have retribution occur afterward. And there's usually always the idea of good and evil being in balance—you've got your "good" gods and your "evil" gods in just about any religion. Heaven/hell. Olympus/Underworld, and so on. And quite often the two "sides" are ruled by brothers or father-and-son, further suggesting the idea of balance and equality between the two. Christian mythology is a little different, and a bit contradictory. On the one hand there's the constant battle between god and satan. And Ecclesiastes 3 describes the idea of perpetual balance with a time for every kind of act, good or evil. But then again it does have the idea that eventually there will be a final battle in which good triumphs over evil.

 No.12760

>>12759
…continued

And while it's true that in some myths heroic deeds remain done, they are sill rather localized. Despite those deeds affecting some amount of good there is still always evil and suffering in the world. Heracles might have slain some evil beasts, but he certainly didn't slay all of them, and it's not as if he saved mankind for the future…

That's not so different from PMMM. The girls saved some people, eliminated witches (and in Madoka herself's case, any and all of them). That's not so different from other classic heroic tales—the heroes did some amazing things but there's still always a constant balance of good and evil after the hero's passing that's far beyond the scope of the specific heroic deeds in question.

 No.12761

>>12757
Huh. I interpreted it as Mami having god mode status on par with Godoka and Homucifer… (Basically being on equal footing with Godlike beings a la Julius Caesar)

 No.12762

Mami is a God of Clowns.

 No.12763

>>12761
I think that's reading an awful lot into the picture that really isn't there. Several reasons, really:

1) it's really common for anime art, posters, etc, to show only part of the cast and not every main character. The fact that Sakaya and Kyoko are missing may not mean anything.

2) When Madoka became Madokami and Homura -> Homucifer there was a rather obvious costume change. But here we see Mami in her normal magical girl outfit. It looks like the photo is showing Mami in her "normal" magical girl form, not some kind of powered-up version.

3) Madoka and Homura are the two opposite sides: good and evil, yin and yang, light and dark, etc. It makes sense that they will be the only two "ultimate form" characters because there's only two sides to a balance. It would be odd to have a third factor here.

….though I must admit, didn't we read in an interview somewhere in which one of the creative staff said something about Mami being compared to the "god of combat" or words to that effect?

 No.12765

>>12763
>didn't we read in an interview somewhere in which one of the creative staff said something about Mami being compared to the "god of combat" or words to that effect?

We did, a "God of Battle". Kubota, the one who said this, then went on to compare her to Guan Yu from Romance of Three Kingdoms…

 No.12766

>>12765
Guan Yu is refered ro as the god of battle in traditional Eastern religions. What is meant by this is that he will bless and support those who fight fight for their virtues. Tbh, it seems more like Mami is going to be the tie breaker that shifts things in (almost certainly) Madoka's favor.

>>12763
Outside of dying by getting his head cut off, Guan Yu was at one point torn between two masters. He temporarily serves the 'villain' CaoCao, who treats him very well, but ultimately returns to his old master. CaoCao allows him becauae he understands that Guan Yu is being true to himself. When given the chance to deliver a crippling blow to CaoCao's army and kill CaoCao, he remembers the the treatment he received under CaoCao and calls off the assualt.

 No.12767

>>12766
>>What is meant by this is that he will bless and support those who fight fight for their virtues.

Makes perfect sense to me.

>>he tie breaker that shifts things in (almost certainly) Madoka's favor.


In my opinion that doesn't make much sense (on its own, anyway). The message of "balance" is constant throughout PMMM. Homucifer is the counterpart to Madokami. They're in balance. For either of them to upset the other wouldn't make a lot of sense given the theme of balance.

 No.12768

File: 1479095859904.png (1.25 MB, 2732x2048, IMG_0607.PNG) ImgOps Google iqdb

>>12767
>In my opinion that doesn't make much sense (on its own, anyway). The message of "balance" is constant throughout PMMM. Homucifer is the counterpart to Madokami. They're in balance. For either of them to upset the other wouldn't make a lot of sense given the theme of balance.

We don't even have balance right now though. We have a 'mysterious duality' , in Shinbo's words. The end of Rebellion did not bring balance as much as it did just alter the old status quo. For all intents and purposes, god is dead and the universe is covered by a universal barrier now. Mami will be instrumental in altering the current status quo as true Balance has yet to be achieved. And 'balance' has tended to mean everything evening out to zero.

It's kinda scary that a total Kyubey victory is a distinct possibility.

 No.12769

>>12768
>And 'balance' has tended to mean everything evening out to zero.

By "evening out to zero", you don't mean "cancel each other out" as in "matter and antimatter collide and nothing's left", do you?

Because if you do, Kyubey definitely wins, so in a sense, nobody wins..

 No.12770

>>12768
>>And 'balance' has tended to mean everything evening out to zero.

Which is mutually exclusive with the comment:
>>tie breaker that shifts things in (almost certainly) Madoka's favor.

 No.12771

>>12769
Dynamic equilibrium is a thing, you know.

 No.12772

>>12768
Another way to think of it is about who bears the despair. In the beginning, it was the magical girls. At the end of the series, Madoka was taking on that despair, but at the same time, it was also inadvertently pushed onto Homura. At the end of Rebellion, Homura takes on all of that despair, endures it with the power of love, and pushes some of it onto Kyubey (presumably).

 No.12773

>>12768
>>12769
QB is done forever. Even Urobuchi said, he is jsut an alien and can't outperform a God. If they make something else, it will be a terrible not canon.

 No.12774

File: 1479183493141.png (1.78 MB, 2732x2048, IMG_0649.PNG) ImgOps Google iqdb

>>12770
As it stands, Homura's not going to give up her power and nothing anyone says or does will convince her otherwise. Mami will likely be the one to push things in Madoka's favor. According to some notes from the concept movie that were posted on 4chan back in Septemeber that were touched up, Madoka wants to go the reconciliation route, Homura's going the lonely suffering route, and we have a mysterious third side that 90% chance is Kyubey.

>>12772
I'm very aware of that. I'm just saying from a balance stand point. Happiest ending is them sharing that burden or forcing that burden onto Kyubey.

>>12773
Source or it never happened. The material book outright states Kyubey is only temporarily out and will be back.

 No.12775

>>12774
>and we have a mysterious third side that 90% chance is Kyubey.

The other 10% is either one of the main characters gone full villain, the wraiths going full Skynet/Terminator on the girls due to the presence of Homucifer or something like that (like white blood cells fighting a foreign invader as the wraith arc implied was their shtick), or it's the introduction of some spin-off and its characters that's being kept as a big secret until SHAFT reveals it on their terms.

Regardless, I'm still hyped for this sequel! =D

 No.12776

>>12774
http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html

>In this movie, Kyubey performs their proper duties again. What is Kyubey to you, Urobuchi-san?


>Urobuchi: Kyubey hasn’t changed since I wrote the TV series. The only thing is that they’re not an all-powerful entity anymore. They’re just an alien, so there’s no way they can compete with a god.


Also, how did someone read those notes? They look too blurry to decipher.

 No.12789

>>12773
Concept movie suggests that Kyubey is a threat.

 No.12790

>>12789
Concept movie is not an attachment to the story.

 No.12791

>>12789
But what can he even do at this point? He's currently serving as Homucifer's bitch (literally) with little to no control over what he gets to do while also being served with so much despair that even THEY quiver in agony at the sheer magnitude of it…

Unless he SOMEHOW finds a way to overpower her/control her in some way, I don't see how he's still relevant as a villain…

 No.12792

>>12790
What made you jump to that conclusion?

 No.12793

>>12790
It serves as a trailer. Sure, it can be misleading, but who knows.

>>12791
That's what I figured from the end of Rebellion, and I would have hoped he doesn't act as a major antagonist this time, but he might trick Madoka into freeing him from Homura's control.

 No.12794

File: 1479274637089.jpg (524.54 KB, 2560x2560, IMG_0437.JPG) ImgOps Exif Google iqdb

>>12791
>What can the space faring, hivemind race that are the primary antagonists of the series and regularly break the established laws of physics do?

Both Madoka and Homura are responding to Kyubey's actions. He's the closest thing to an antagonist we have in this series.

Top picture is the Rebellion concept trailer at the end of Eternal
Bottom is the Madogatari concept movie.

 No.12796

>>12791
>>12794

I think the key to note here is that throughout most of the series QB is substantially more powerful than the girls. However, after the final events of the TV and the goings-on in Rebellion, now the tables have turned and QB is no longer so powerful by comparison. Madokami and Homucifer are both substantially more powerful than the incubators.

But that assumes a direct confrontation. It's entirely possible that the incubators are involved "behind the scenes" or by a more manipulative role. The images posted by 12794 both involve an eye. That indicates that QB is observing. And as we know the incubators could be doing all sorts of things "behind the scenes". They certainly could still be antagonists.

 No.12797

QB by himself has no magical powers. He is just interdimensional being who can unlock magical girl's power. They can control and guide magical girls only by communicating with them. But they are nothing more than insects to someone omnipotent like Madokami and Homura. Making him antagonist and giving any major role again simply won't happen. Atleast it is how Urobuchi would do it.

 No.12799

>>12797
Correct. I think he'll probably serve as some form of exposition fairy or someone who explains what's going on in the plot for the characters and audience's benefit, but nothing more substantial beyond that.

It's all up to the girls now to clean up this mess and set things right again…

 No.12800

>>12797

QB does seem to have some kind of powers. After all, he conducts the ritual (or whatever you want to call it) that creates magical girls. He's also somehow able to replace or regenerate his body—after all, he manages to survive being killed many times in the TV series and again in Rebellion. But I do agree that compared to Madokami or Homura he is indeed an "insect".

That said, there are still plenty of ways he could cause trouble other than being an opponent in a blantant fight. He could easily manipulate others to serve his goals.

Look at it this way: A Mafia don—being a fat old man—could probably not win in a straight-up fight versus a young street-level soldier from a rival family—or a police officer. BUT, the don has influence. He can set other people against his enemies. He can manipulate others to do his bidding for him via fear, intimidation, manipulation, trickery, etc. QB couldn't take on the main cast directly. But he could influence their behavior by threatening their friends, by feeding them lies, or other such tactics. Just because he is "less powerful" than the others in a literal sense doesn't mean that he is down and out.

 No.12801

>>12800
You have a point there, and keeping with the analogy, perhaps Kyubey will make Mami an offer she can't refuse? This would make her unknowingly serve under Kyubey until he gets his way (he gains the Law of Cycles, as was his original goal in Rebellion). And like Guan Yu with Lu Meng, she will be tricked into doing so, with Kyubey as Lu Meng in this example, perhaps even "disposing" of her when it's all said and done.

Fortunately, if this parallel is made and is continued from that point, Guan Yu eventually had his revenge on Lu Meng by possessing and then killing him as a spirit, so maybe Mami will gain her vengeance towards Kyubey during the climax…

 No.12803

>>12800
This is especially worth noting since Madoka is decidedly not a power level anime.

 No.12804

>>12796
It's always been about indirect conflict though. Kyubey has never been stronger than the girls and has never personally attempted to kill them in a fight. He's just manipulative. Both Madoka and Homura accept that he is a necessary existence in the universe.

>>12800
This has always been the main conflict of the series though. Only a retard would expect Kyubey to fight Madoka or Homura head to head. It's always been about him deceiving and manipulating to get his way.

 No.12805

>>12799
>I think he'll probably serve as some form of exposition fairy or someone who explains what's going on in the plot for the characters and audience's benefit, but nothing more substantial beyond that

Yeah, half the reason why Homura chose to go full satan is just going to just sit back and watch things unfold. He hasn't gotten less manipulative in any iteration of the story he's appeared him. I highly doubt he's just going to phone it in.

 No.12806

Homura did it because it's better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. All this incubator stuff is made up by fans to apologize her actions.

 No.12807

>>12806
Um, what has X (Kyubey) even got to do with Y ('apologizing' for Homura)? The one concrete thing we have to go by is the concept movie itself plus related material, and it takes its time to focus on Kyubey. So, it's entirely natural to speculate on whatever role the incubators might assume in a possible sequel.

 No.12808

>>12807
That's bait.



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