From what I've seen on this site, a lot of people are recommending flat-out killing the wiki and starting from scratch, claiming that the wiki's been dying since Rebellion came out due to fanboys who used to be admins on the wiki locking pages regarding certain articles out of spite towards Rebellion. As for the fandom itself, most of the fans either gave up on the franchise post-Rebellion, or simply got sick of waiting and "got a life".
I'm still holding out hope for a resurgence when the sequel comes out, but many fans think it's either not going to happen or will happen but not for a very long time (some say it'll come out as late as 2020!)
From what I see you've got two options: either wait it out like I am, or join the mass exodus away from the fandom. The choice is yours…
"Fandom" dying is a silly concept. You can't retcon the times you sat through the show and loved it enough to lurk an obscure place like this board. Theres just not a lot to talk about because major releases have been ooh-so-slow.
>>12934>WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FANDOM
For fuck's sake, when do you people learn to not think of Madoka fans as a homogeneous hive mind? We are all individual people with our individual circumstances and individual motivations here, it's not like we're all collectively choosing to not edit the wiki. Fucking disgusting.
Because it's all Japanese-only. Shaft and Aniplex have made clear the international fandom will get nothing beyond the anime and a few manga. Ignoring the post-Rebellion autism, itt's too much work at this point.>>12935
What mass exodus do you speak of? The series was never really strong outside of Japan. Acclaimed, yes, but Madoka was never a household name. I know autists on here didn't like Wraith Arc, but that's a bridge into Rebellion and a good indication of where the next project is headed (unsubtle yuri undertones, more emphasis on action, stronger horror/dark fantasy vibes).
>>12934>Anons don't spend every waking moment thinking about a 12 episode anime and a movie
Most of us have lives outside of here. I follow a few Japanese blogs and Twitters that keep me up to date on the franchise, so there's no reason to really update a wiki just for idiots too lazy to use Google. The stuff is out there. Just go find it.
The wiki is too clogged with fanon and needs to be cleaned up and unlocked before it can be of any use. Restarting it might be a better idea than trying to salvage it at this point.
It's not uncommon for franchises without steady releases to have people gain and lose interest as there are more additions to the series. 2 years is a pretty big gap for most people to pay attention to one thing, and since we aren't getting games you'll have to wait until the next big release for people to come back.
also because people so selfish like this one >>12939>>12938 >The series was never really strong outside of Japan.
Then why the movie trilogy got screenings on 12 countries? >I know autists on here didn't like Wraith Arc, but that's a bridge into Rebellion and a good indication of where the next project is headed
To be honest, Wraith Arc plot got really bad once Homura was brainwashed by Wraithdoka and the ending was a bit lacking. Glad we got new info about Wraiths though.
Why are they selfish? Because you want to be spoon fed?
>Then why the movie trilogy got screenings in 12 other countries?
Ultra limited 2 day screenings aren't impressive.
No one outside of Japan is getting the games, no one outside of Japan is getting the merchandise, no one outside of Japan is getting the full spectrum of manga. This is so typical of Japan that I have to assume this is babby's first fandom for half the people on this board.
Refusing to spoonfeed idiots is not selfishness, it's a great service to the entirety of mankind.
I don't know if starting over would be a good idea honestly. It's not that hard to clean the fanon stuff out (I've managed to move big chunks of fan art from character pages so they look better). Isn't there a way to contact the mods to unlock the pages?
It's not just the fanon stuff either, any actual information is presented in such a disorganized and careless fashion that it's hardly worth salvaging.
I've heard that they're aren't any mods for the wiki anymore, and if there were, the majority of them were probably the ones who locked certain pages to spite Rebellion and quit…
Also, if there still are, there's likely only 1 or two left who check on the site in their spare time, instead of constantly checking for bugs/updating it.
A good start would be to remove the observation and speculation threads. If it's not stated in the main text or stated by Quartet, then I don't see why we should included random anons interpretations of the franchise. I think it would be more helpful to post quotes from interviews with people from Shaft and Quartet rather than rather than fanon.
Format wise, a Wiki is where I go to read 'facts' about a series. Rather than a Wiki, I'm seeing a lot of Tvtropes-tier content and trope formatting.
I'll use a character that isn't a power keg first:https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Sayaka_Miki
Sayaka's general information is a mess. It's a random mess of information that borders on trivial. There's no order to how things are presented and the bullet format gives off an air of illiteracy.
Secondly, it's clear that the editors were far more concerned with jerking themselves off than they were about contributing content. This speculation and observation page is out right garbage. 90% of it irrelevent to the show and just based on what some Tropers believed. https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Homura_Akemi#Speculations
To use a more controversial character, let's look at Homura: without attacking or defending her character, a lot of this is either blatantly obvious shit or fan interpretation of Homura's character. Readers should just look at quotes from actual interviews with Butcher and friends (Homura's wrong, but not evil) rather than walk into the minefield that is the raging Homura dindu nuffin/did summin fanboy proxy wars that miss the whole point of Rebellion;
Because it's better to share new info than having a false sense of elitism because you know something than others don't. >>12944
Then we have elitism, which is a worse cancer. Not defending spoonfeeding though but its really pathetic if you think keeping information about a fiction work from some people is a great service to the mankind.>>2948
I agree with these, even more erasing the speculations pages, since they were obsolete since the anime ended
It's not about keeping information from others, it's about making them google for it on their own. If you don't let people learn how to google, you get to google everything for them for the rest of your life.
I think erasing a lot of this gibberish is actually a good idea. The speculation pages can be erased but I used to like looking at them. But since the anime ended they've kinda have no use anymore. Maybe restarting the wiki is a better idea or maybe we should just leave it alone.
The problem is new stuff isn't always important. You want to know what Shinbo said in the latest Kirara?
-Hanokage said Shinbo, Ume, Iwakami, and InuCurry came up with the base scenario that she adapted for Wraith Arc
-InuCurry was responsible for Majuuka and her character
-Mami could beat LoC Sayaka + Octavia + the familiar army in a fight>>12951
Looking at the Wiki now, I do think it's clear that many of the pages were either started by or added to by Tropers. There's a clear interpretation over facts mindset, even going as far to use phrases as "some people" in a poor effort to give a view point credence. The more I look at it, the more I believe it's not salvagable. There's some great translations dumps and info on the games and merchandise is pretty great, but that's about it.
- nuke the character pages
- leave the stuff like the PSP/VITA/Online games, episode by episidode rune translations, merchanidise pages. fan works page alone. Those are the most well dpme pages
- organize translation dumps
- update the manga pages. This could be as simple as adding character profiles to things like Tart and summaries straight from the books. Tart literally has a dramatis personae with information on all the characters
Fuck, why didn't anyone take the past year and add info on Madogatari? We have actual Mono x Mado art work!
And a well-kept wiki is the most convenient method of allowing people to educate themselves about such subjects.>>12952>fan works page
All fan-made content should be purged. Every character page has a gallery of fanart that contributes nothing. If people want a collated site for fan works, that remain on its own separate wiki.
If people want fan art of their favorite Madoka characters that badly, maybe they should learn how to use Google Images, or even how to navigate through and create membership accounts on fanart-specific sites like Pixiv… =/
…someone really said, "Mami could beat LoC Sayaka + Octavia + the familiar army in a fight"? Who? I mean, I totally believe Mami is the baseline strongest of the Mitakahara 5 before you start adding in time loops and accumulated karma, but that seems a bit much.
Could they be trying to pump up Mami's reputation in anticipation of the new project? She did feature heavily in the concept movie.
The only fanart that should be allowed is that created by official artists. ie: art by gekidan/ume that isn't 'canon' but still relevant
Fan works =/= fan art. There are plenty of memorable fan works such as Grief Syndrome. I think there should be a page dedicated to the existence of fan works because of how large the fan work community is. Madoka doujishi themselves are produced in an unprecedentes number and Urobuchi himself gives thumbs up to it. That said, fan art doesn't belong on main pages. As >>12955
said, you ahould just go to Twitter, Danbooru, Pixiv, etc for fan art.
I believe there should be one page dedicated to the fandom because Madoka is driven by its obsessive fandom.
Akiyuki Shinbo said it.
I mean, stuff like various fansubs, encodes and especially the Fancutfags release should definitely be on the wiki, because that's the only fucking thing your average person might ever want to look up.
I can tell you right now nobody cares about that dead project.
>>12960>Encodes, fansubs, Fancutfags>Only fucking thing your average person might want to look up
How autistic are you?
wiki is fine for me and has enough stuff
>>12952>nuke the character pages
Disagree, they are a basic element of the wiki. However, they need to be reorganizated.>leave the stuff like the PSP/VITA/Online games, episode by episode rune translations, merchanidise pages. fan works page alone. Those are the most well dpme pages
I agree, fanworks and merchandise also needs to be updated.>organize translation dumps
This, should be a top priority>Update the manga pages. This could be as simple as adding character profiles to things like Tart and summaries straight from the books. Tart literally has a dramatis personae with information on all the characters
This one should be a top priority too
The only thing that most people care about is what they need to get in order to watch the show and what is the order they should be watching it in. Then they watch it once, then they don't feel particularly enthusiastic about it and then they don't have any reason to go on the wiki anymore. Madoka doesn't exactly have a complicated watching order, so you just need a list of some of the best subs in various languages, some of the best encodes, and Fancutfags because that's the version that people really should be watching.
By nuke I mean start from scratch. They shouldn't be eliminated, but they should be reformatted in a mpre organized fashion. Refer to the character pages I put up from the 4 other Wikis. >>12965>Fancutfags because that's the version that people really should be watching.
No. It isn't. People should be watching the official Shaft productions, not an obsessive fanwork.
First, a Wiki doesn't encourage piracy. Second, I agree with the person above. In no other fandom would someone recommend a fan work over the original production. Third, not everyone watches anime on their PCs. Even if you don't buy the BD discs, thete are countless legal alternatives which you should use to support the creators. Fancutfags is by no means the definitive version of Madoka.
If you are the creator of the Fancutfags project, I hope you know you are a piece of shit for stating fan works are irrelevent while touting your own fan work as the definitive version of an already award winning project.
He really said that? Source?
Why should people be watching something inferior? The Fancutfags release is simply better than the official version.>>12967
Many wikis encourage piracy which isn't surprising because both wikis and piracy are rooted in internet culture, and it's rare for a fan work to actually be better than anything official because usually the only thing you can do is remove things but Fancutfags merely replaced material with improved material. If you want to support the creators, buy merch. Watching Fancutfags is not mutually exclusive with that.
I'm not involved with the Fancutfags, but regardless I never said that other fan works are irrelevant, I specifically said that the wiki needs to have information on fan works because some of the fan works such as fansubs, encodes and Fancutfags are the main things that people who don't know anything want to know.
So how did you watch Madoka? There was no way to legally watch it back then. If not you, then majority of the fans outside Japan watched it through streaming or torrenting anyways. Looking at the number of downloads the torrents of the episodes have shows that.
Fancutfags are the definitive version. You claim that the original version is always the definitive one but even SHAFT doesn't think that way. Why do you think they touched it up for the blu-ray and touched it up even more for the movie? Fancutfags does nothing but combine the best version of the series (the movie) while bringing back content removed from the series.
We haven't heard a peep out of Shaft since the Concept movie. We barely just finished Wraith Arc (chapter 9 isn't even scanlated yet) and no merchandising or advertising or anything has really been taking place. No wonder the fandom is mostly dead.
When pt 3 drops everyone will go nuts over it again and then the autists will pan it just like they did to Rebellion.
They're dropping a big mobile game in japan, the franchise is by no means inactive as a whole, it just might as well be in the west where we can't have access to half of what they're producing.
Did my last rewatch with fancutfags, it was completely awful, wont ever watch that shit again. either original (first time) or movies (always) should be the way to go.
I doubt you actually watched it.
What exactly was so awful about it?
I'm assuming you're one of the people above who talked about how fancutfags is piracy? Anyways, you probably didn't even bother to watch it since fancut fags is basically the same as the movie but with the deleted scenes from the series included. Yet, you're recommending the movie when it's almost completely identical to fancutfags.
I was trying to stay out of this discussion, but I would rather say that it's almost exactly like the original TV series, but with improved visuals. We didn't just add the missing TV scenes in between the movie scenes, we actually made the movie scenes match frame-for-frame with the corresponding scenes from the TV version and most of the time you're hearing the audio from the TV version alongside the visuals from the movies, especially in the "TV cut" edition, which we recommend for first-time watchers.
That was my first post on this thread and yeah, i watched the fcf's tv cut version. it is much worse than the movies, wich are perfectly paced and have the same type of quality troughout their entire duration. don't know about the movie cut, but it is probably not as good as the movies because of its duration, OPs and EDs (exclusive movie openings and obvious reasons also).
I honestly thought the fcf's versions would be much better than, at the very least, the original series. don't have that much time atm
why would you even defend any type of version if you can't even recognize the movies' quality
Why are we even comparing Fcf to the movie? That wasn't the point. Its the TV series with swapped visuals where applicable. Nothing more, nothing less. Its a fanwork in the same way a wikipedia article is user-submitted.
The movie cuts out more or less an hour of content from the TV series and some of those scenes would have been nice to have. I appreciate FCF's effort to conjoin both, even if the stark contrast in visual quality between them is jarring at times.
You know all those times VN/manga to anime adaptations have fans saying "Aw, they cut off this bit from the source material…" ?
Its kind of like that. The movie didnt cut those scenes for artistic reasons, they did it because constraints.
>came in here wanting to discuss the future of the series and what we might get in the future
>get a bunch of autists shitflinging about some shitty fan version of the series and the movies
Just watch the original series you bunch of tards goddamn
It's a widely accepted fact that the first movie is awfully rushed. The only reasons to watch it are curiosity to check it out once and having issues with your attention span. >>13025
It's hardly a fan version, it's literally the original series but strictly better.
Is not about selling a fan version though. Theres no fan-insert of any sort. Its about selling both the series and the movie in one go.
I dont see how watching them separately back to back enhances the experience other than the catharsis of "muh correct watching" but you do you I guess.
>>13029>it's literally the original series but strictly better.
So is this the Madoka version of CTR?
Why not instead of pulling bullshit like "hurr durr its objectively better no questions asked" you explain why it's good and why the fuck I should care about it when I can just as easily watch the original series that I love and care about?
Look, we all went a bit off track here. FCF's quality is discussion for another thread. The issue is whether or not it should be in the wiki.
It shouldn't. Its not fanwork, its official materials from the TV and the movie, which I doubt FCF has rights to. That makes it piracy.
I like FCF, I appreciate the work, but at the end of the day its not legit enough to go on the wiki. If people want to watch FCF they'll have to find some obscure sources and lurk moar, to help avoid the risk of Aniplex taking it down.
Because it has movie budget visuals. That's literally the only difference.
And what if I prefer the original series' visuals to the movie's visuals?
Hifi doesn't make everything better.
Then you're a retard.
So yeah. CTR. Thanks for proving my point.
Until I don't have to watch FCF hunched over on my PC like a basement dwelling autist, I don't see a reason to treat it like it's a must watch or a definitive edition. It might derserve a one or two sentence entry on the fan work page, but it's like >>13037: it's not a fan work and directly encourages piracy. >>13031
You're wrong on that. FCF has two seperate video tracks, both at the full length of the series and both with different alterations. Watching the series and movies would be quicker.>>13040
I'd also point out that a lot of the movie alterations are just more Shinbo-isms than were in the Tv series. That retard would be hard pressed to find side by side scenes that objectively look better. Instead we get stuff like this, which have less to do with budget and everything to do with Shaft's fetish for architecture and an additional year to fuck around.
The only thing objectively better is the audio quality and voice acting. The movies have 5.1 surround sound while the series only has 2.0 stereo.
5.1 vs 2.0 would be a valid reason for the FCF to be better but I don't even have a 5.1 system so it's redundant. >>13055
1st is too plain, 3rd is too greebly. I prefer 2nd the most.
FCF doesn't even use the 5.1 track. It uses the downgraded stereo track from the movies. And I agree, fence two is the best.
It's also the version that I'm used to and the version that I always watch when rewatching. FCF still has no superior points or plus points over the original.
My god. Just shut up. No one cares what you think about FCF. First people, complain that FCF has bad pacing and prefer the original series. But after people explain that FCF has the same pacing with the series and has the visuals from the movie, people complain about more things and demand reasons to prefer FCF even though they already have it set in their head that they will always have a reason to hate on FCF just because. Just watch what you want and stop dragging this on for god's sake.
Except for the visuals which are objectively better in FCF.
This thread goes around in circles more than Homura goes back in time.
You keep using that word, unsurprising for a shill.
Can we get back on topic.
The original series is obviously the first one everyone should be watching. after that, each time I want to rewatch madoka, I just watch the movies wich are by far the best/most enjoyable version of all imo. I don't need to watch all 12 episodes EACH time I want to watch madoka.
About the wiki, I don't like doing things like this http://walpurgischan.net/meduka/res/12897.html
or what FCFs did (expected this to be much better than what it is), I respect the series and I don't know if what I know about it is supposed to be on a wiki page + I don't speak english.
Lol, they're by the same person too.
Dude, we get it already, you hate that guy for whatever reason. No one gives a shit.
why would I hate a random person on the internet, I just realized it was made by the same guy (FCFs is a group anyways)
Suuuure, it's just a coincidence someone started bumping that thread and calling it cancer as soon as you got butthurt over a misunderstanding in this thread. Nothing suspicious about it at all.
I don't get it. Why did American fans, not Japanese ones, hate Rebellion? Is it cultural differences?
Who hates Rebellion outside some raging autists on the internet?
1. I've never met an American fan who hated Rebellion that wasn't also a complete moron. Having issues with it is fine as it isn't perfect in the least, but calling yourself a fan AND hating Rebellion is a good way to broadcast that you had no clue what you were watching in the first place.
2. I think it's less a cultural thing and more a interpretation thing. Madoka Magica is about magical girls as much as Evangelion is about giant robots. The anime was aimed at the late night audience (young adults) and requires a higher level of comprehension then your average otaku pandering anime. Rebellion even more so than the series. And it certainly doesn't help that Rebellion is open ended to the point that you could write both a SoL comedy or a grimdark tragedy with evidence to support both outcomes.
Another issue is that early translations were so butchered that you almost feel like the translator has an agenda. Comments about Urobuchi being forced to write Rebellion, the cast looking at Homura (a fan favorite) with significant disdain, Shinbo laughing about how much money he's raking in etc. Comments in that vein are offensive to fans of the any franchise, so it's really no surprise that the fan base quickly polarized.
And it's disappointing, because these types of things aren't in official translations and completely kill the spirit of Rebellion.
Aside from all the…bickering…on this board, I think it depends on what you mean by "fandom", OP. I'm someone who grew up with magical girl anime and stumbled upon Madoka in 2014, probably right around the type the hype from Rebellion ended. Despite never being part of Madoka during the hype train boom, I instantly fell in love. So my relationship to Madoka has never really been when it's popular, and I'm kind of a normie IRL so I don't have anyone to talk to about Madoka. But I still snoop around this chan occasionally looking for news on the post-Rebellion sequel. So, not sure what your definition of "fandom" is, but if you mean are there other people out there who think Madoka's story is unfinished and are continuously excited about a resurgence–well–hi.
Yeah the fandom is pretty much dead in terms of contributing valid, translated, and relevant material. All it is now is fanfic, fan art, and ship debate. The wiki hasn't had anything relevant contributed in a while, and the creators are hesitant to release anything new. We'll just have to enjoy what we have.
>>13200>the creators are hesitant to release anything new.
Does anyone have any ideas on what could be causing them to hesitate for so long? We went an entire year without anything new regarding the sequel, with the only thing having anything to do with it being a loose connection (that may not exist, mind you) with the sequel in the wraith arc interquel spin-off. I get that there's progress updates in the Kiara magazine on a monthly basis, but when will we get anything concrete?
Probably later in the year. An optimistic release date for the sequel would be 2018.
There is no 'hesitating'. A serious project tends to take 2-3 years to put together from storyboarding to release. We know they didn't seriously start work until late 2015 and Shinbo said the initial storyboarding finished around April of last year. We're still very much in that time frame.
Pretty much. They've been on record saying they would only pursue a sequel if the fans wanted it and they felt they could out do themselves.
>Akemi literally means beautiful dawn>Nightmare ends when morning comes
Reminder that Homu is the only one who can end the night that Ai refuses to end.
I want to believe* lol
There are almost no responses in /meduka/
Enkan = Circle
Madoka = Round
God, this shit isn't hard to look up.
It could have easily just been written "The kanji used to write Law of Cycles (円環の理) is a play on the kanji used to write Madoka (円か), with 円 in both cases meaning 'circle'"
I always figured Homura went Yandere a long time ago and becoming a self-aware gnostic demiurge was only natural.
I'm down at this point for restarting the wiki from scratch and keeping the salvageable parts like the episode by episode rune translations, etc like other anon said if it's not possible to get them to unlock the wiki. Hell, I'll volunteer for editing and/or rewriting the pages if need be. It would be worth it for the mobile games and others that are coming out currently
I'll help contribute to the wiki. It's pretty much dead and with all of this new stuff going out I think it's past time that the wiki gets cleaned up. Plus, the entirety of the Rebellion production note is scanned online and I'm sure there are translators who could help with that too.
So when are you guys gonna start up a new wiki? I'm up for contributing.
Not even sure where to start. It's so messy. I think we need to get rid of all the speculation content (there's a TON). We also need translators because there are a lot of scans of interviews and official content no translations. Do you think it would be better to create a whole new wiki and just use the old one to pull content?
You can, but I'd see about trying to contact a mod first to see if you can get the chance to be an admin and unlock pages for clean up (I know 0x99 is still alive as I've contacted them before)
We can do it one at a time and worry about stuff such as translators later.
Alrighty, so I'm going to start by scrubbing off all of the speculah that's plastered all over the character pages / witch pages. Anyone want to start by organizing the menu bar and putting links to pages? There's tons of content in the wiki but half of it is scattered all over and not all of it is easily accessible
Also, what's the consensus on the fanart? Should it stay or should it go?
I think fanart should go. It's not really all that necessary to have them all cluttering the wiki. If people want fanart, they can search elsewhere for it.
Good thing I separated them (and official images) from the main pages. Go ahead and delete the fanart.>>13461
The side bar or the front page?
I think a little of both. We need a new page just for IOS / Android apps. Also the Titles are kind of a clusterfuck and need to be separated a bit. You have Magica record and the psp games all mixed up with the manga. It gets and looks confusing.
Separately, I like how the character pages for the Suzune characters are organized compared to the main characters for example. It has the physical info like height and eye color but it also has the wish (if confirmed) as well as the soul gem and other relevant information. I think if we can clean up the character pages in a similar manner it'll be more streamline and create a more organized wiki as far as that section goes.
Sorry, when I meant putting links to pages I meant we have a lot of wiki pages with interview and magazine information but the only way to access most of it is by following links from main pages to another sub page and then another page. You can only dig certain pages up if you know where to find them. Maybe we can create a few links in the sidebar or front page that can help to put some of this information in one place where it can be more easily accessible?
A WILD MOD APPEARS! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Please voice your opinion here about Wiki cleanup. Thanks.http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Talk:Main_Page
Well known fan art related to the culture of the fan base should stay, random fan art shouldn't be up.
I would like to voice a concern and a possible request:
while the Wiki has some significant issues in terms of organization and lay out, I think it's important to remember that the Madoka fan wiki is one of the best resources out there. Yall should definitely ADD before yall REMOVE stuff. If yall get bored with this in a week or two, it's better that stuff has been added or updates than it is for entire sections and resources to disappear without any hope of recovery.
>>13503>>13504>fan art related to the culture of the fan base
Which ones in particular?
>resources to disappear without any hope of recovery
Isn't the wiki regularly archived? We shouldn't be loosing anything.
Wiki XML dump is updated automatically every midnight (UTC), and has been for 6 years already.http://wiki.puella-magi.net/User:0x99/Maintenance_log#XML_Dump
That said, if we start a new Wiki, I do plan to keep the old one running in read-only mode, so no content will be deleted. Just that we will have a more organized Wiki to work with (leaning toward using en.puella-magi.net for the new Wiki so it could be multilingualized.)>>13507
Already restored. If you found a page blank, please go to the History tab and rollback it. Thanks!
We should take heed of the fact that over the years there're many, many hyperlinks on there in the internet to various parts of the wiki. Breaking them would be a grave disservice.
Yes I understand. So at the very least, the new Wiki will gonna live in a different URL (e.g. en.puella-magi.net) I'm not quite sure what to do with wiki.puella-magi.net at the moment, maybe it's the best to leave it at the old URL (or make old URL redirect to legacy.puella-magi.net) and put up banner as a disclaimer that this is an archive and may be out of date and please use a new wiki.
So are we going to update the wiki at all or are we going to post the updates on the new wiki when it's finished and we're waiting for that?