Honestly, there is none. Truly, and I don't mean to insult anyone's ship, I think the fans took kyosaya and ran with it, leading the creators to produce more kyosaya art and content, including their over-the-top scenes in Rebellion. It's something the fans like and while there is nothing wrong with liking the ship or having head canons, there is very little basis in the actual anime. Reading the spin-off manga The Different Story helped me put things into perspective. Kyoko choosing to die with Sayaka's witch in the show was based on her resolve to no longer abandon people, like she did to Mami and look how that turned out. It's a relationship built to cater to a large fanbase. Once again, don't shoot me, I have no problems with kyosaya all I'm saying is that it doesn't have much foundation within the story.
>>13422>Kyoko choosing to die with Sayaka's witch in the show was based on her resolve to no longer abandon people, like she did to Mami and look how that turned out.
I feel like you're implying something I'm not getting here. Kyoko's resolve to no longer abandon people led to her choosing to die with Sayaka, right? I haven't read The Different Story in about two years or so though so if you're referring to events in TDS then I'm clueless.
Overall, thanks for your response.
I want to read what's been released thus far of the Wraith Arc. Can someone give me links?
I also want to read any newer chapters on Oriko. I liked that.
I think Kazumi got some new releases too. I don't remember anything too negative regarding Kazumi.
There were two others. There's one where a girl goes out of her way to hunt down and kill other Magical Girls since all Magical Girls inevitably become witches and there was another that was set in France during a war. I'd like to see the non-France one.
I'll just post my request here rather than spam a new thread.
Basically, a combination of sympathy, loneliness, and a reawakening of her true self. At heart, she was never a sadistic hedonist; she was genuinely an idealistic and kind-hearted person. She went down the path of "loss hurts, so if I don't love anybody, I won't feel the pain of loss" as a reaction to the death of her family and shattering of her ideals.
At first, Kyoko simply views Sayaka as a naive idiot, but she comes to realize that Sayka's idealism is being broken similarly to how hers was, so out of empathy, she tries to reach out. She also begins to view Sayaka as a potential friend, in order to fill the void of Kyoko's own loneliness. When Sayaka refuses to let go of her ideals to the bitter end, Kyoko is inspired. She even explicitly states that Sayaka reminded her that she became a magical girl for the sake of love and justice. And some part of Kyoko realizes that when she sets out to save Sayaka, she knows she's doomed to fail, but success isn't what's important; rather, it's that she fought for the belief in good instead of conceding to cruel reality.
There are a few moments before Kyoko's sacrifice that manifest the progression of her feelings towards Sayaka. The first is her inviting Sayaka to her church to explain herself. She's admitting to herself two things: she really does care about others and that she doesn't like depriving herself of companionship. Then there's the moment when she tries to help Sayaka fight a witch. Although Sayaka doesn't agree with her, at that point Kyoko knows that she at least understands her, and since she wants to be understood, she attempts to protect that. This morphs into empathy/love, so that Kyoko role-reverses with Homura in preventing Sayaka's death. And when she stops denying her sympathies, she even gets angry at Homura on Madoka's behalf when the former is completely nonchalant about Sayaka's demise.
>>13422>Honestly, there is none.
Yes, or at least in the series proper. Kyouko sees in Sayaka a reflection of herself, but Sayaka never stops seeing Kyouko as contemptible.
As you mention, by the time Rebellion was made, there had been so much fan-shipping that the creators threw in some blatant pandering.
>>13427>Although Sayaka doesn't agree with her, at that point Kyoko knows that she at least understands her, and since she wants to be understood, she attempts to protect that.
Am I reading this correctly? I'm reading:>Although Sayaka doesn't agree with [Kyoko], at that point Kyoko knows that [Kyoko] at least understands [Sayaka], and since [Kyoko] wants to be understood, [Kyoko] attempts to protect [Sayaka's understanding of Kyoko].
That doesn't make any sense to me. Protect what? Protect Sayaka's understanding of Kyoko? Why would that understanding become tarnished? Protect Sayaka's understanding from what possible threat? Other than time making the memories hazy, I can't think of what threat there could be to Sayaka's understanding of Kyoko.
>And when she stops denying her sympathies>And when [Kyoko] stops denying [Kyoko's] sympathies
What does this even mean? I've never seen this phrasing before so I don't know how to make sense of it.
Am I reading this correctly?
To clarify:>Although Sayaka doesn't agree with [Kyoko], at that point Kyoko knows that [Sayaka] at least understands [Kyoko], and since [Kyoko] wants to be understood, [Kyoko] attempts to protect [the person who understands her]
As for the second part:>Kyoko stops denying her sense of sympathy towards others
Kyoko seeing herself in Sayaka makes sense.>>13431
Thank you for clarifying.
the sayaka - sakura relationsnhip/suicide is accepted to be the tv series weakest spot, read decent reviews and most would ocmplain on hwo little sense it makes.
now, about the pairing is not primarily the fans fault, shinbo purposefully put a shoujo kakumei utena reference in there, which is lame, but word of god confirmation of sakura's feelings for sayaka.
>>13429>Sayaka never stops seeing Kyouko as contemptible
Untrue. During the church scene, Sayaka apologizes to Kyoko for misjudging her and gains some respect for her, even if she doesn't see eye-to-eye with her.
It's there, but it isn't romantic. As others have said, Kyouko sees herself in her. Her actions aren't motivated by love, rather their motivated by her realization that Sayaka is just like she used to be and in a way a surrogate for her dead sister. Sayaka on the other hand never really feels anything but animosity until the last moments of her life, when she realizes Kyouko was right and she should have listened. Come the universal rewrite, Kyouko and Sayaka are on marginally better terms. >>13422>>13435
It would have been better if KyouSaya was the close sisterly relationship that could go either way. It doesn't add anything to the story. Homura feelings for Madoka are a pivotal plot point and whether Madoka shares those feelings or not has significant impact on character motivations and the plot of the next project. Kyouko and Sayaka being gay just doesn't do anything for the plot overall outside of pander.
What? Isn't it typically "Idealism/Realism"? Or perhaps even "pragmatism" instead of "realism". But alright, Kyouko and Sayaka have that theme going for them then what's the theme of Homura and Madoka? Would it be personal vs impersonal love? I don't know if there's such a thing as "impersonal love" but what I'm referring to is the fact that Homura was devoted to Madoka (individual) whereas Madoka was devoted to everyone indiscriminately (collective).
Oh yes, one more question: How could Kyoko and Sayaka be seen as law vs chaos? They both seem to argue for law, it's just that while Sayaka argues for a moral law that supplements civilisation, Kyoko supports the natural law. How are you defining "Law" and "Chaos" here?
The ancient Greeks distinguished 4 kinds of love:
"Storge" - affection/family - this love arises from familiarity with a person. In the Madoka this exemplified between Madoka and her mom.
"Philia" - friendship - a bond based on common interests or activities. In the original series, I would have said Kyouko's affection for Sayaka mostly reflects this since it's based on Kyouko's recognition of their similar circumstances. Sayaka eventually seemed to reciprocate on the same grounds (this isn't including Rebellion)
"Eros" - romance - self-explanatory. Homura's emotions mostly reflect this, with shades of storge and philia.
"Agape" - unconditional/charitable love - This is considered one of the highest forms of love, and evokes a sense of caring that does not vary with circumstance. This is the sort of universal love of humanity exemplified by Madoka.
Madoka and Homura can be boiled down to selfless/selfish. Madoka is Christ like in her selflessness and denies personal desire whereas Homura is an imbodiment of the Ubermensch in her selfish desire. It's not so much love as it is desire. >>13447
Law: Sayaka wants to be a hero who fights with honor. Hence why she's a knight. She embodies 'justice'. Decretum, her theme, is Latin for 'decree' or 'ordinance' in relation to a collection of laws.
Chaos: might make right, survival of the fittest. Kyouko outright states this as her mantra. >>13449
Chill out autismo, it's not nearly this complicated.
>>13445>Madoka was devoted to everyone indiscriminately (collective).
I also don't know where this comes from exactly. Madoka very much has a more intimate and personal relationship with Homura upon her ascension to godhood than anyone else in the series. Urobuchi himself says this as well.
>>13450>It's not so much love as it is desire
Except Homura acts against her desires. Homura desires to be together with Madoka, but prioritizes Madoka's own happiness above this. As such, Homura deliberately sacrifices her desire by distancing herself from Madoka, because she believes Madoka will be better off without her. It's not a simple selfish/selfless distinction; it's more like selfless selfishness/selfish selflessness.
How does love (in any of its forms) differ from desire?>>13451
The whole point of Madoka ascending to Godhood was to change the system of magical girls becoming witches. She wanted to change it all and help everyone so nobody needs to suffer the way they did.
The impression I get from Madoka's failed attempt to talk Sayaka into making peace with Kyoko is that Madoka genuinely dislikes conflict. Even if Madoka's relationship with Homura gained a whole new level of intimacy, that doesn't mean it has more weight to her than the suffering of humanity and all of its magical girls.
Finally, I'm looking at Madoka's reasons for becoming
a God. How Madoka feels about reality after
becoming a God is irrelevant to my point. She did what she did out of a sense of love for humanity, even if her relationship with Homura deepened after this transition.
>>13453>She did what she did out of a sense of love for humanity
And in order to compensate for her lack of self worth. Madoka believes that she is useless unless she sacrifices herself for others; becoming a god was a means establishing a sense of self-satisfaction/self-worth.
Personally, I think this is a chicken-or-the-egg thing regarding the authenticity of Madoka's actions.
Does Madoka help others because she has feelings of low self-worth? Or does she have feelings of low self-worth because she was unable to help others? I think it was the latter whereas you seem to imply the former. I think a person growing up in a loving family like what Madoka had would feel bad about being unable to help others but I guess that's just me in the end.
>>13455>>Or does she have feelings of low self-worth because she was unable to help others?
That. She even says as much in the TV. Madoka says something to the effect of "I thought I would always stumble through life being of no use to anyone"
I'm not dismissing Madoka's altruism; I'm simply indicating that there is no true selflessness; people are altruistic because it provides a personal sense of fulfillment. It really doesn't matter which came first because it's cyclical. Regardless, self-sacrifice gives Madoka that aforementioned sense of fulfillment that she was lacking.
>>13457>It really doesn't matter which came first because it's cyclical.
I don't think so. I think that when you imply that Madoka only helps people because she has low self-esteem, it implies that her self-esteem issues are independent of her usefulness to people and so, anything would assuage those feelings. Madoka could strip for attention due to feelings of low self-esteem.
Madoka has low self-esteem because she's not smart or skilled.On top of that, she's never had to overcome any hardships. She doesn't believe she can be of use to other people because she has no abilities. This is why she has the inclination to become a magical girl, because it provides her with the ability to help other people, which establishes a sense of self-worth.>Madoka could strip for attention due to feelings of low self-esteem
Makes no sense because Madoka doesn't seek attention.
>>13460> I think that when you imply that Madoka only helps people because she has low self-esteem
Is also not what I implied.
>>13464>Makes no sense because Madoka doesn't seek attention.
Whether or not Madoka seeks attention is irrelevant to my point. If we follow what I believe(d) to be your perception of Madoka, that she merely helps because it alleviates her low self-esteem then yes, attention-seeking would make sense because getting attention would also alleviate it. Or perhaps being a bully. This is all to prove your opinion wrong/inaccurate.>>13465>> I think that when you imply that Madoka only helps people because she has low self-esteem>Is also not what I implied.
>>13466>> attention-seeking would make sense because getting attention would also alleviate it
I'm not the person you're debating this with, but that statement doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
If Madoka desires to "help" or to "do something meaningful for people" then what does attention have to do with anything? Getting attention doesn't "help". It's a totally different thing altogether.
>>13466>attention-seeking would make sense because getting attention would also alleviate it
Attention-seeking is a response to a lack of attention. Lack of attention is not one of Madoka's issues. Her issue, as I stated in >>13464
, lack of ability leading to a sense of uselessness, which drives her desire to be useful to others.
>If Madoka desires to "help" or to "do something meaningful for people" then what does attention have to do with anything? Getting attention doesn't "help". It's a totally different thing altogether.
My reasoning is that if her desire to help others is rooted in a desire to be valued by others then this desire in turn is the result of her failure to value herself i.e. the state of having low self-esteem. If it's a simply a matter of low self-esteem then in my eyes, there's a variety of possible solutions. These would include attention-seeking and bullying. Attention-seeking is viable because people only place their attention on the things they value so for a person to receive attention is for that person to be valued.>>13468>Attention-seeking is a response to a lack of attention.
Well that changes everything. I had the idea that general low self-esteem issues were resolved with general solutions e.g. finding ways to be useful to others, finding ways to garner attention, bullying, etc.
That's an overgeneralization. Attention seeking is usually a response to neglect. Bullying is usually a response to being overpowered. Madoka's response is to a lack of ability. All of these include low self-esteem, but are different in nature.