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File: 1523456636934.jpg (98.05 KB, 1200x900, DaGxWJqVAAIt8Mj.jpg) ImgOps Exif Google iqdb

 No.14147

Hey Wiki bro, can we get this shit deleted from the Rebellion page? The "Criticism" section is just one assmad rant that belongs in the YMMV section of TvTropes.

"One of the main concerns regarding the new ending in "Rebellion" is that Homura's action renders Madoka's sacrifice and message of hope meaningless. The ending from the anime series and the previous film loses its impact and this causes concern among the fans who became emotionally invested on Madoka's message of hope.

Another problem is the devolution of the Homura character, starting from a weakly girl and evolving into a strong magical girl, Homura becomes what many consider to be a strong underdog who overcame many obstacles to protect what she treasures. However, in "Rebellion" we see what appears to be the beginning of the unraveling of the Homura character, we see the fall of a strong magical girl into what it is presumed to be a form of madness.

Many fans regard the movie as not being genuine nor true to the original anime series, with various far-fetched and abrupt deviations. They think of it as a mostly commercial moneygrab that contains little carefully crafted content, just as many other anime productions in Japan do. They still regard the original ending of the anime as canon."

 No.14148

>>14147
I don't think there's anything wrong with having that on the page; Rebellion did stir up quite a bit of controversy and the like (pretty much the reason why there's so few people around on the wiki anymore for starters).
It might need a rewrite however.

 No.14149

>>14148
I agree with OP, take that crap outta here. It's simply inaccurate.

For starters, the original TV series (or first two movies) did NOT have a happy ending. Madoka sacrified herself, sure. but what do we see right afterward? The world is 99.99999% the same as it was before her sacrifice. QB is still there contracting girls. The girls still fight–only it's "wraiths" now instead of witches. And in the Japanese the names of those opponents are even more similar than they are in English: Majuu (wraith) instead of Majou (witch). The ending of the original is very much about futility, just like many points earlier in the program.

2) Homura's change to Homucifer is also perfectly in line with the recurring themes of "balance" and "fate" in the TV series. Throughout the TV it is stressed over and over again that the world is always in balance. So if Madoka ascends and becomes a god-like figure (Madokami, Ultimate Madoka, whatever you want to call her) it is expected that there will be some kind of balancing force as well. And that's Homucifer.

Whoever wrote that is free to not like Rebellion. That's perfectly fine. But that snippet of text shows that the writer seems blind to the events of the TV. Thinking that PMMM has a happy ending is just as silly as claiming that Eva is a show about giant robots. It misses the point completely.

 No.14150

>>14149
….to continue

Anyway, I do think it's appropriate to mention that Rebellion is/was controversial. There's no denying that. But, it seems to me that the controversy lies in some fan's misunderstanding of the original TV/movies, rather than the absurd expanation posted above.

Oh, and the controversy ought to have little to do with the "ending". Watch Rebellion a few times and the foreshadowing becomes obvious right from the beginning. Hell, even Homura's monologue at the very beginning is some pretty heavy foreshadowing of what's to come. Anyone who was "blindsided" by the ending wasn't paying attention.

 No.14151

>>14149
this right here
the idea that the TV has a happy ending is absurd. it's all about futility. Madoka made a huge wish, so major that it literally resulted in her ascending to godhood & re-wrote the universe. and what do we have to show for it? something very very minor: instead of becoming witches the girls "dissappear into the void, taken by the law of cycles".

note that the girls still suffer:
-QB is still around, and recall that what he's doing is converting emotional swings into energy. if there was no suffering there'd be no emotional swings for him to gather energy from.
-recall from the dialogue that "once a girl suffers equal to the good she wished for the she becomes a witch". suffering first, then witchdom. replacing witchdom with "taken by the law of cycles" does nothing to take away that suffering.

there is no happy ending here folks.

 No.14160

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Glad to know how many people missed the point of the original run of the series.

 No.14167

>>14149
>>14151
I see it as having a happy ending.

 No.14168

>>14167
Care to explain how you reached such a conclusion?

It seems rather obvious that the post-wish world is for all intents and purposes identical to the pre-wish world.

 No.14176

>>14168
Well everyone dies at some point.

Pre-madoka universe sends girls into an eternal Nightmare (hell if you will) once they witch and they witness despair enducing images based on their own regrets for all eternity

Post-madoka takes these girls (bodies AND SOULS) And let's them literally sleep. All girls that are taken by the LoC are put on an endless dream like state where they dream peacefully for all eternity.

What's the difference?

Well if the concept movie is anything to go by, the girls taken in the Loc are gonna rebel against Homucifer because they hate Homu's new reign and want/need Madoka back.

 No.14177

>>14168
Don't forget that Madoka also did not want to invalidate the struggles and efforts of all past magical girls. This was shown with not only her wish but her scene with Sayaka.

Please watch the show again and try understanding that the message is "Even in the face of despair, hope can guide you to salvation"

 No.14178

>>14176
I can't remember the exact scenes or I'd look them up and quote verbatim, but the dialogue states at least twice that once girls become witches they are essentially without any kind of conciousness anymore. Once was in referance to Sayaka after her transformation. The other is not present in the movies but is in the TV when Mami is teaching Madoka and Sayaka about witch hunting. (Though I will admit that those moments are not consistent with Homura's "so this is what being a witch is like" line in Rebellion–but then again Homura may well be a special case).

I have watched the TV many times through and I am thouroughly convinced that if the message were meant to be a positive, happy, one then the ending would have been very different. There is no glimmer of hope or sign that things are better. In fact, all the details post-Madokami seem to emphasize, in extreme detail, just how similar things are. That reinforces the notion that nothing appreciable has changed.

Now of course the new movie (or whatever the concept movie is hinting at) may well change things, or shed a different light on what the TV shows, but we clearly don't have that information yet. I was limiting my comments to the TV alone.

 No.14179

>>14178
…continued.
Now, if we assume that you are correct and that instead of 'suffering as a witch' the girls simply "dream eternally", or to quote the show "are taken into the void" (which sounds like "death" to me), then that seems like a shockingly minor victory or improvement given the literal re-writing of the universe.

Think of the magnitude of what happened in the plot (literal world-destroying & recreating the entire universe) for such a minor change, and then the director's decision to show us that the post-wish world is pretty much identical right afterward. That doesn't suggest "happy" to me. That suggests "futility".

 No.14180

>>14176
>Well if the concept movie is anything to go by, the girls taken in the Loc are gonna rebel against Homucifer because they hate Homu's new reign and want/need Madoka back.
Mami and Sayaka fucking things up is a common thread in the franchise. Theyre stupid enough to make a deal with Kyubey.

>>14177
>Don't forget that Madoka also did not want to invalidate the struggles and efforts of all past magical girls.
But she invalidates Homura’s struggle and efforts. That’s not a defect or an oversight: it’s a recurring theme of Urobuchi’s writing in that one’s salvation is easily another’s damnation. It’s really hard to take any message of hope seriously when the final words of the series were Homura admitting that the world is shit and will always be shit, but she might as well protect it in memoriam because she literally has no other purpose. Rebellion exists as an anthesis and a direct response to the themes of the series and that ending.

>>14178
>>14179
Agreed. The series ends in a literal fucking wasteland. The series ending was thematically appropriate, but it certainly wasnt happy.

 No.14181

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>>14178
>> I am thouroughly convinced that if the message were meant to be a positive, happy, one then the ending would have been very different.

Let me clarify that a bit. I didn't mean that the plot had to be different. I meant how things were presented after the fact.

For example, we see a scene in the new world in which the girls have been fighting and then poof, Sayaka is gone. If the ending was meant to be happy the dialouge might have said something about her "being in a better place now" or something similar. But instead the girls react just like they did in the early part of the series. There is no change to the positive.

Likewise, a scene might have been included tht shows a postive experience for the dead girls soul(s). Nope. Vanished into the void with not even the slightest hint of anything positive or happy.

>>14180
>>recurring theme of Urobuchi’s writing in that one’s salvation is easily another’s damnation.
Exactly. Not only is it repeatedy emphasized in PMMM but we see the same themes in Psycho-Pass and in Gargantia too.

 No.14182

>>14181


>Likewise, a scene might have been included tht shows a postive experience for the dead girls soul(s). Nope. Vanished into the void with not even the slightest hint of anything positive or happy.


Did you not see the girls smiling as they were taken?? Also they're not dead. Can't find the interview but all the girls are taken as they are, alive and sleeping.


And what's with no sliver of hope or happiness? Did you not see so 12? What was the tone then if it wasn't meant to be a happy one. Nothing says the world was destroyed btw. And it can't be far future stuff as Madoka's family and friends have remained the same age. Could it be a random ruined city? Sure. Not mitakihara though.

>she invalidated homura's suffering


How? She put all the girls in the universe before her obsessive Waifu (who is actually included in the numerous girls) she sacrificed herself for everyone

>Sayaka and mami fucking shit up


Sayaka and mami didn't fuck up the universe homufag.

 No.14183

>>14182
>>Did you not see the girls smiling as they were taken??
I'm talking about the world after the wish, not the sequence shown during the wish.

>>Did you not see so 12?

Where do you see happiness in the post-wish world in 12?

>>What was the tone then if it wasn't meant to be a happy one

A statement about futility. And an excellent one at that.

>>Nothing says the world was destroyed btw.

The universe literally re-wrote itself according to QB, or perhaps one might say that Madokami aka Ultimate Madoka did it. I.e. the entire universe was destroyed, then rebuilt, with only the tinest of changes made but fundamentally no different than before.

Look at episode 20 AFTER the world is rebuilt. No glimmer of hope anywhere, and Homura's dialogue with QB sitting on the heights of the new Mitakihara city suggests otherwise.

Or for that matter listen to Homura's monologue at the very beginning of Rebellion. She quite clearly states that the magical girls fight a never-ending futile struggle in a universe that forever repeats cycles of suffering and pain.

Personally I think that's a very strong message. It's one thing to fight to do good if you always win and are invincible (i.e. Superman or Jesus). It's another thing entirely to fight to do good when you always lose in the end and never really effect any sort of change. Powerful stuff, which I why I love the show so much. But happy? Lol no.

 No.14184

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>>14179
I mean, if we're going to bring up the end of the original series having a feeling of futility here, by the logic presented, wouldn't that make the ending of Rebellion equally futile, if not even more? I mean, Homura does get to enslave the Incubators in becoming a "demon", but they're still there despite her taking control. She makes claims that once all the Wraiths are all wiped out, she'll consider destroying the universe, but in order to do that, she'll not only have to wipe out the remains of the Law of Cycles, but will ultimately just have to kill/erase Madoka, since while she's a small part of the Law of Cycles taken, she is still a piece of it and since she was the one who originally rewrote the universe, she has to be ultimately eradicated in order to completely destroy the universe. And considering that Homura is more unstable than a retirement Home's foundation being a single dingy crutch, Homura's sense of entitlement towards making Madoka happy and her making her happy alone and her suicidally low self-esteem may just blow up in her face if the former ultimately makes Madoka unhappy with everything to the point that she may say she "doesn't belong anywhere" or "can't be good at anything" or can't really find any happiness anymore in Homura's Reign or world despite Homura's efforts to make it as "normal" and "happy" as she can, and the latter possibly making Madoka blame herself for everyone's suffering if Homura ultimately kills herself and prior to ends up killing/destroying Madoka's friends, which may just make her just wish that none of this ever happened, which may just reset everything to ground zero/step one.

 No.14185

>>14184
Continuing this one:
I mean, i'm making speculation here, but it's endless towards the thought of if the whole series and it's ending is about futility, then Homura's Rebellion and reign will ultimately mean Jack squat in the end. Which is possibly a reason why the movie is still considered controversial and why it should be a detail for it being controversial–giving into selfish desires and obsessions just brings even more misery and futility than a selfless act that only makes a minor change, so Homura made a fatal misstep that she may or may not be aware of by giving into her obsessions and misunderstanding Madoka's actions or words? At this point, I won't be surprised if the next movie goes the route of "Let's make it one big cycle where the end of the series is actually the beginning of it".

 No.14186

>>14184
>>wouldn't that make the ending of Rebellion equally futile, if not even more?
Absoloutely yes. Rebellion is more of the same. Though, in my opinion Rebellion is more op-ended. The ending certainly doesn't resolve anything. In my opinion Rebellion is a great example of a situation where the journey is more imporant than the destination.

>>14185
>>At this point, I won't be surprised if the next movie goes the route of "Let's make it one big cycle where the end of the series is actually the beginning of it".

That wouldn't surprise me either. Urobuchi loves that concept specifically. Note that PMMM, Psycho-Pass, and Gargantia ALL have a full-circle plot like that. Note specifically that PMMM and Psycho-Pass begin with a flash-forward to the very end of the series.

 No.14187

>>14186
>>op-ended
Should have been "open-ended", sorry.

 No.14190

>>14187
It's cool, I had a feeling that's what you meant. All this talk on the theme aside, in terms of how this thread started, I think I agree on it possibly being rewritten so it sounds less like a emotion-filled rant, possibly making note that Rebellion's controversy is notable for how many people's interpretation of the series may have contributed to various reactions to it, and to this day creating a divide within the fanbase with not much of a middle ground? Laconically–rewrite the criticism in a more professional tone and point out that split the fanbase and general opinion when it first came out.

 No.14191

>>14190
Sounds good to me.
Even though I don't personally agree it certainly is true that Rebellion was controversial and IMHO any encylcopedic discussion of the film ought to mention that. However, I draw the line at posting inaccurate information & fan rants.

 No.14207

>>14149
pretty much every girl accepted that she's gonna die doing this job. not turning into an Eldritch Abomination is definitely an improvement over the last system.
Madoka couldn't fully fix it, but her world was still a hell of a lot better than what has been before.

 No.14208

>>14207
I'll agree that it's technically an improvement, but I think it's a very small one in the grand scheme of things. The staff went to great lengths to show us just how similar things are pre- and post-wish.

>>Madoka couldn't fully fix it

This is actually an intersing point of discussion. I can't help but wonder if she *could*, but simply didn't. We can see that she was powerful enough to literally re-create the entire universe, so perhaps she could have done better? Or perhaps the point is that no matter how powerful she was she couldn't really affect that much change? I need to go back and rewatch the dialogue with Sayaka when they're viewing Kamijo's performance at the end of the TV.

 No.14210

>>14208
>> I can't help but wonder if she *could*, but simply didn't.

We saw a little of that with Sayaka. She healed Kamijo's hand but she didn't heal the rest of his body. I got the impression that she *could* have healed him completely but she ended up making a more limited wish due to simple oversight.



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